Bush commutes Libby sentence

[Thecla]

Discuss.

[Munkay]

Discuss.

Well...

sigh. When I read news like this I often think about the future: when I have kids, what will I tell them about the presidency of George W. Bush? He doesn't view himself as the third branch of the US Government. He sees himself as the leader of the free world. And as the most powerful man in the world, he runs his ship with his agenda first - a true cowboy of the presidency. That is, perhaps, the best answer I can muster.

More specifically, surprised more by the timing of Bush's commuting than the action itself. I was expecting Libby to be top of the list for last day pardon signatures at the end of his term. Although there's some understandable urgency about commuting sentences, the obvious outcry against the act is far from wanted at a time when his presidency is under public scrutiny (for better-or-worse, dipping approval ratings seem to be a hot topic on the news these days). Personally I see it as another event in a long string of being a cowboy in the oval office.

As someone who is hesitant to jump on the anti-Bush bandwagon, I am deeply conflicted about the way he treats the presidency. In many ways it's hard not to feel a slight sting, acts like this feel like a slap in the face. But before I go off on a rant about where's the justice, and what happened to our ideals, our traditions, and the elusive 'American way', I'll take a step back and take a deep breath.

I'll try to jump in later when its more about the particulars. I apologize for saying so broad, but I just read about this online and I'm still rather troubled by the whole thing.

Cheers,

Munk

[GhastMaster]

Last I heard he was convicted of being a Cheney lover(:P). I didn't know that was crime. I'm glad he got his sentence commuted. However, he is still paying a hefty fine for the things he actually did. There is little excuse for purgery at that level, even if he did not need to be there in the first place. If you put him in jail for 2 years and fine him a quarter of a million dollars, should not Bill Clinton have the same sentence? Clinton even admitted to the act of purgery. I dislike Bill Clinton's policy, but he seems like a nice guy. However, at that level of government no act of purgery should go unpunished. I am glad Bush commuted rather than pardoned.

[Occhidiangela]

Discuss.

Libby's neocon buddies will doubtless pass the hat and get his fine taken care of, if he doesn't just handle it from his own personal wealth.

If this is a felony conviction, he can't vote, nor buy firearms.

The conviction stands until W pardons him at the end of his term, or, W thumbs his nose at Scooter, because he can, and lets it stand. Given the recent four part series in the Washington Post about Dick Cheney, it may be that W is irritated by some of the things his top adviser and team have done, so since Scooter isn't "W's" boy the way Rove is, he is not obliged to pardon him.

All in all, the guarantees that distance from W is a good thing to have as GOP candidate. Not sure if Obama or Hillary can make the most political hay out of this, but what really surprises me is that Edwards does not seem to have leaped all over it. He may be biding his time, or see that this is a tempest in a tea pot, since the ocnviction was not overturned.

I bet Libby goes ahead with his appeal.

DR

[Bun-Bun]

Libby's neocon buddies will doubtless pass the hat and get his fine taken care of, if he doesn't just handle it from his own personal wealth.

If this is a felony conviction, he can't vote, nor buy firearms.

The conviction stands until W pardons him at the end of his term, or, W thumbs his nose at Scooter, because he can, and lets it stand. Given the recent four part series in the Washington Post about Dick Cheney, it may be that W is irritated by some of the things his top adviser and team have done, so since Scooter isn't "W's" boy the way Rove is, he is not obliged to pardon him.

If he's not pardoned, I suspect he can still take the 5th if Congress or some prosecutor wants more testimony. Commuting the sentence wouldn't affect that.

[Nastie_Bowie]

Last I heard he was convicted of being a Cheney lover(:P). I didn't know that was crime. I'm glad he got his sentence commuted. However, he is still paying a hefty fine for the things he actually did. There is little excuse for purgery at that level, even if he did not need to be there in the first place. If you put him in jail for 2 years and fine him a quarter of a million dollars, <span style="color:#CC0000">should not Bill Clinton have the same sentence? Clinton even admitted to the act of purgery. I dislike Bill Clinton's policy, but he seems like a nice guy. However, at that level of government no act of purgery should go unpunished. I am glad Bush commuted rather than pardoned.

/applause

I wondered the same thing myself.

[Jester]

That would be somewhat like giving the same sentence for stealing a candy bar as stealing a car.

Same crime, but at totally different magnitudes. What goes on in Bill Clinton's pants is irrelevant, and while it was a stupid idea to lie about it, in the end, what he perjured himself about matters exactly zero. He deserves a slap on the wrist and a hefty fine for putting his personal life ahead of his obligation to tell the truth under oath.

The outing of CIA agents, either out of revenge or stupidity, is a much larger issue. If well-connected people close to the President are willing to perjure themselves about it, the punishment should be severe indeed. That Bush would see fit, after a lifetime of giving almost no clemency, no pardons, no communtations to anyone for even the most airtight reasons, to commute Libby's sentence because it was too harsh is absurd cronyism.

-Jester

Afterthought: There is, of course, the obvious difference that Bill Clinton was tried and found not guilty, thus precluding any punishment at all, whereas Scooter was tried and found guilty.

[Occhidiangela]

Afterthought: There is, of course, the obvious difference that Bill Clinton was tried and found not guilty, thus precluding any punishment at all, whereas Scooter was tried and found guilty.

While true, regarding his impeachment by the Senate, he was disbarred.

Libby should be in jail.

Buck Fush.

Occhi

[Tris]

Don't we have more important things to think about? Love it or hate it, there have been many previous examples of far greater exercises of executive power. As Andrew Jackson essentially said in regards to a U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding the legality of the (2nd I think) Bank of the U.S. ... They've made their decision now let them try to enforce it.

[kandrathe]

The outing of CIA agents, either out of revenge or stupidity, is a much larger issue. If well-connected people close to the President are willing to perjure themselves about it, the punishment should be severe indeed. That Bush would see fit, after a lifetime of giving almost no clemency, no pardons, no communtations to anyone for even the most airtight reasons, to commute Libby's sentence because it was too harsh is absurd cronyism.

First, I believe it has been determined that Ms. Wilson was not outed by Libby, although it turns out he made a somewhat obscure reference of her to Judith Miller. Judith Miller never wrote an article from her interview with Mr. Libby. What came out in the trial? Ms. Wilson's "secret" was the worst kept one in Washington.

Let me say two things. Number one, I am not speaking to whether or not Valerie Wilson was covert. And anything I say is not intended to say anything beyond this: that she was a CIA officer from January 1st, 2002, forward. I will confirm that her association with the CIA was classified at that time through July 2003. And all I'll say is that, look, we have not made any allegation that Mr. Libby knowingly, intentionally outed a covert agent. We have not charged that. And so I'm not making that assertion. -- Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald

Dick Armitage admitted that he was the one who outed her to Mr. Novak. No one was ever charged with the "crime" of outing her. No one is trampling on Novak for being the stupid journalist who published the article that destroyed her "covert" career.

It looks to me like a political fishing expedition that caught Mr. Libby in the justice net. Everyone else had their get out of jail free cards ready. He could have been just a little more forthright and obscure like the others and walked. But, he chose to take a stand that his position in the Executive Branch would protect him. That is until the slavering wolves get too close, and you are the slowest runner. This reminds me very much of Ollie North and Iran-Contra. I'm frankly a little tired of both sides using something as sacred as Justice as a political weapon.

I would think the easiest thing in the world would be to catch a politician lying. Is it any wonder that the smart ones take the 5th and hope for the best? Put anyone on the stand for months on end and see how long they can hold their story consistent. Is this news to anyone?

'We're not saying we didn't think Mr. Libby was guilty of the things we found him guilty of, but it seemed like he was the fall guy. ... tasked by the vice president to go and talk to reporters." -- Denis Collins Journalist and Juror#9

[Jester]

First, I believe it has been determined that Ms. Wilson was not outed by Libby, although it turns out he made a somewhat obscure reference of her to Judith Miller. Judith Miller never wrote an article from her interview with Mr. Libby.

Correct. But nobody has maintained, AFAIK, that Scooter Libby outed Valerie Plame, but rather of perjuring himself and obstructing justice during the coverup of what was, apparently, Richard Armitage's mistake. I suspect, given how bitterly the administration resented Joe Wilson for his role in the Yellowcake scandal, that it was more than that, and thus, the widespread reluctance by anybody to say anything about it. But maybe it does stop at Armitage, and the Libby thing is just an example of an stupid man making an extremely stupid choice, and an even stupider president letting him off the hook for his years of loyal service as a crony.

What came out in the trial? Ms. Wilson's "secret" was the worst kept one in Washington.

Perhaps so. But they seem to have an awfuly small list of suspects, considering how much time was spent figuring out who leaked the information. Why would people cover their butts so thoroughly for the "worst kept secret in Washington?" Seems funny to me.

Dick Armitage admitted that he was the one who outed her to Mr. Novak. No one was ever charged with the "crime" of outing her.

And I'm not sure why not, except for the fairly feeble distinction that Armitage might not have known Plame was "covert" when revealing her as a "CIA operative". Isn't this a very serious issue? I didn't presume that when Bush said that anyone caught violating the law "would be taken care of" that he meant they'd be shielded from penalties. But I guess I was wrong about that.

No one is trampling on Novak for being the stupid journalist who published the article that destroyed her "covert" career.

Why is "covert" in quotations? She was a NOC at the time of her outing.

It's not a crime for a reporter to report, since any information they're entrusted with is supposed not to be classified. Bob Novak blabs because that's his job, sleazy though he may be, and while he was certainly pilloried on the left for reckless stupidity, I don't see how what he did was illegal. It's how he knew that was the question. And if Armitage was the source, and was eventually willing to admit as much, why did Scooter bother to perjure himself? Sheer stupidity is probably a good enough answer, but it still seems strange.

This reminds me very much of Ollie North and Iran-Contra.

Yeah, no kidding. Fall guy screws up and takes the hit, while a dundering president and corrupt, scheming administration get off with barely a scratch. It's like deja vu all over again.

I'm frankly a little tired of both sides using something as sacred as Justice as a political weapon.

Justice should be done regardless of whether it serves someone's political ends or not. I get the distinct feeling that this those who should really be punished haven't been, and that there are still things we don't know. But it appears that, for the moment, either I'm wrong, or tracks have been well enough covered. Certainly the part that smells worst about it to me, that the Bush administration consistently claims and tries to be above, beyond or outside any law, American or international, has yet to be resolved in any satisfactory way. This is just the latest outrage.

-Jester

[Thecla]

Don't we have more important things to think about?

Yes, indeed. We could discuss Nicole Ritchie's pregnancy or, perhaps, the use of false intelligence on Iraq's supposed nuclear program to take the US into a disasterous war.

[GhastMaster]

Don't we have more important things to think about? Love it or hate it, there have been many previous examples of far greater exercises of executive power. As Andrew Jackson essentially said in regards to a U.S. Supreme Court decision upholding the legality of the (2nd I think) Bank of the U.S. ... They've made their decision now let them try to enforce it.

Indeed, Bush excercising his right to pardon/commute Libby is just a drop in the bucket compared to past uses and abuses of the presidential pardon from both sides of the fence I would wager.

[kandrathe]

Why is "covert" in quotations? She was a NOC at the time of her outing.

She was still classified as "covert" and for the ignorant masses she may have been, but she was known within the world intelligence community as an operative since her first outing back in the 1980's iirc by the Soviets.

Justice should be done regardless of whether it serves someone's political ends or not. I get the distinct feeling that this those who should really be punished haven't been, and that there are still things we don't know. But it appears that, for the moment, either I'm wrong, or tracks have been well enough covered. Certainly the part that smells worst about it to me, that the Bush administration consistently claims and tries to be above, beyond or outside any law, American or international, has yet to be resolved in any satisfactory way. This is just the latest outrage.

I just feel that taken to the next level we will have show trials and need to have Amnesty International on letter writing campaigns for political prisoners within the US.

[Thecla]

She was still classified as "covert" and for the ignorant masses she may have been, but she was known within the world intelligence community as an operative since her first outing back in the 1980's iirc by the Soviets.

So what are you trying to say here? That if the former Sovet Union has identified a US CIA agent, then it's ok for all and sundry to do so as well? Valerie Plame/Wilson was absolutely a covert CIA agent:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections...employement.pdf

At least, until various people in the Bush administration deliberately, or inadvertantly, blew her cover. (Though Libby, it seems, was the only one stupid enough to lie about it.) The use of ".." around covert is not much better than talk-radio obscurantism.

I heard quite an interesting radio interview with Valerie Wilson's neighbors a while back: they were absolutely astonished that she worked for the CIA, and assumed she was a normal upper-middle class Washington DC mother. She was, as far as they were concerned, a "consultant" with the government, which they took as Washington code for "unemployed".

[Jester]

She was still classified as "covert" and for the ignorant masses she may have been, but she was known within the world intelligence community as an operative since her first outing back in the 1980's iirc by the Soviets.

Hm. I'd not heard that angle, with the Soviets involved. From whence does this come?

I just feel that taken to the next level we will have show trials and need to have Amnesty International on letter writing campaigns for political prisoners within the US.

... I'm confused. Scooter libby obstructs justice and perjures himself, and is sentenced to an entirely reasonable 30 months for those crimes. That doesn't exactly sound like a step away from show trials and political prisoners. If anything, a reasonably functional justice system is being impeded in its task by political interference.

And, IIRC, you already have Amnesty International writing to your government asking them to release the prisoners held at Guantanamo wihtout due process.

-Jester

[Ashock]

Yes, indeed. We could discuss Nicole Ritchie's pregnancy

Wow, is she really pregnant? Is GW the father? This is really disturbing.

[Thecla]

This is really disturbing.

Only if their child goes into politics.

[kandrathe]

... I'm confused. Scooter libby obstructs justice and perjures himself, and is sentenced to an entirely reasonable 30 months for those crimes. That doesn't exactly sound like a step away from show trials and political prisoners. If anything, a reasonably functional justice system is being impeded in its task by political interference.

No, I'm talking about 25 years of the political infighting using special prosecutors to go on fishing expeditions usually indicting the cronies of the incumbents on narrow interpretations of law. Let's ignore Scooter for a moment, and reflect on the numerous Clinton era psuedo-scandals and indictments. If only *real* crime were pursued with the same zeal and resources.

And, IIRC, you already have Amnesty International writing to your government asking them to release the prisoners held at Guantanamo wihtout due process.

Yes, they are. There is a difference between alleged foreign enemies caught on a battlefield, and US citizens imprisoned for disagreeing with powerful politiical parties. I fear that the political majority passes so many laws infringing on citizens liberties that it becomes impossible *not* to break the law.

[Ashock]

Only if their child goes into politics.

Bah, the way we're going, their child might be considered a strong candidate by then.