SR Karazhan Signup

[Tal]

I realize that wow is a lot of stress and no fun, so I'm going to stop playing for a while. I enjoy meeting and playing with most of you. :)

I'm sorry I won't be able to make it tonight.

Raidleading is a difficult and frequently thankless chore. I hope after some time off you'll be able to find your center and return to playing WoW. If you like I'd be happy to talk to you about some true horror stories about raidleading for perspective. Or I could just be a pair of ears.:)

[Mavfin]

EDIT: This run is on hold till some of this is resolved. --Mav and Zynli

Note 2: By the way, if anyone is unhappy that Detector wasn't in the raid last night, after being rostered, he didn't get in the raid because he didn't make it on time, and Selendra came off the waitlist. End of story on that, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure the officers will concur.

Note 3: Also, discussion and input were asked for. What we got was people quitting, and ranting. Is that really how you give input when asked?

[weatherine]

I can't believe how hypocritical this is.

Facts:

1) There was a failed kara attempt organised by Detector. After that bad attempt, there was no enthusiasm in more runs.

2) Even among those who sign up for raids, there is a difference in preparation and time commitment given. Elaboration later.

3) Holyrain attempted to organise another kara run. Not a lot of lurkers and alliance signed up/seemed excited about this run. Was it because of the failure of run one? Lack of confidence?

Those who signed up on time for this raid:

Holyrain
Arrock
Sabra
Ruv
Weatherine
Selendra
pakse (signed up a couple times but never got to play due to work mostly)
mithiks (signed up, but had specified things to do so may not make it)

On raid day,
shadowmagix

At this point, we had 7 of us, 1 healer. (excludes pakse and mithiks because they had stated they may not make it).

We need 3 more, including 1 healer. What to do?

So we asked friends, trying for anyone not raid locked, good players we've pugged with and liked, and they came.
Multanis
Thamales
iaretankgood

Detector also signed up now (shadow priest)
Zynli probably came because we begged him and he was around, replacing shadowmagix who couldn't make it.

Refer to this post: http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index...topic=9885

The week's kara raid was pretty successful, killed attuman, probably moroes.

4) The next week, there was a very late sign up post. Holyrain was away on some other business. Those who signed up on time were:

Sabra
Ruv
Pakse
Detector
Zyn

Sign up on raid day itself:
Selendra
Keshi (was protection then)
Arrock
Weatherine
Holyrain
Thamelas
Multanis (asked privately)

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index...topic=9917

Results of the week's raid: Was okay, no real progression since there was a lack of time. At this point, realise that multanis has had to mainheal along with selendra for 2 weeks, because nobody else is a healer.

5) Another week, another raid:

On time sign ups:
Holyrain
Detector
Ruv
Selendra
Weatherine
Lightlady (new sign up, somewhat undergeared, but priests for shackles are always welcome)
Zynli
privately asked multanis, who agreed.
shadowmagix
Pakse (pakse always signs up but unfortunately the raid doesn't fit her time schedule)
arrock
sabra
popar (new sign up, just returned to wow after letting subscription lapse)
hykim (he'd be late probably due to work)
iaretankgood never signs up in any week, but he's been filling in whenever someone can't come at the last minute, which is often. (And he plays key roles always)

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index...topic=9935

There was definite progression this week. Even an ad-hoc organising of a curator/chess event run that was successful.

6) The week's kara sign up:

Holyrain
Weatherine
lightlady
Detector (switched back to holy priest)
Popar
Multanis
Sabramage
Shadowmagix
Zynli
Thamelas
Arrock
(Assume iaretankgood is here waiting to fill in, which he was)
Selendra (could only make it on friday this week)

Raided two days, not enough people showed up for a Friday attempt.

Raid is making good progression again. Clearing trash faster, downing bosses faster.

------------------------------

7) So what was the point in listing all the signs up above? My point is, do you see familiar names cropping up? Yes?

Do you see any new names crop up for the 4 weeks? Popar and lightlady. Are multanis, iaretankgood, thamelas new names? No.

8) So, at this point, there is about 14-15 people rotating for 10 slots.

The kara run continues to make good progress every week.

And now the officers (sabra, tal, who else?) decide that we need to give priority to lurkers and alliance and only find room for multanis, tankgood if possible.

a) who among the officers are even in our kara run and play with us, and will be affected personally? Lets see. Sabra. Who else is an officer?

B)how many lurkers kara runs are there in stormrage? Bolty/Tal/officers have a wildly successful kara run, yes?

Do you have 15 people or more rotating and trying to get into your run, or is it just 10-12 players?

Do you have room to invite others to your kara runs?

When attunement was actually needed, did you have room to actually offer help, instead of just urging everyone to be nightbane attuned?

c) Since those of you making the rules are mostly not part of the kara runs, do you know exactly how prepared each player is, and how much effort they're contributing to the run?

Multanis - fully potted, despite pretty good healing gear. Always. Late once when he had pc problems.
Lightlady - sorry chris, but you still don't have the bonus heal right now.
Detector - I've heard him mention lack of mana pots twice now. Late a few times.
iaretankgood - in very good pvp and crafted gear, available to help us make up 10 whenever we need.

d) So most of the officers are part of another, more successful kara run that doesn't invite anyone else to play, doesn't have the sign up problems this team 2 run is facing right now, probably didn't see the difference in effort the lurkers and non lurkers friends are putting into this kara run.

Yet you think you have a better idea of what's more fair for this kara run.

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier. You're being hypocrites. Prove me wrong. Find a spot for weaker players and help them more in your elite runs.

I cannot be a part of this. I like some of you a lot. We've played quite a bit over the past few weeks, and I applaud your commitment, especially

Holy
Arrock
Zyn


It's been fun.

[Tal]

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And now the officers (sabra, tal, who else?) decide that we need to give priority to lurkers and alliance and only find room for multanis, tankgood if possible.

As far as I am concerned Sabra and Holy set up this run and as far as I know Sabra has been placing the emphasis on it being a Lurker/Alliance run. Looking at what she's posted everytime the subject has come up reinforces this.

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a) who among the officers are even in our kara run and play with us, and will be affected personally? Lets see. Sabra. Who else is an officer?

The people being affected by this is not Lurker officers nor am I worried about them. Sabra's concern was for the guild population as a whole.

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B) how many lurkers kara runs are there in stormrage? Bolty/Tal/officers have a wildly successful kara run, yes?

There are two. One is a combined force with our allies in the Alliance House Harpell. The other is this one.

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Do you have 15 people or more rotating and trying to get into your run, or is it just 10-12 players?

Yes

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Do you have room to invite others to your kara runs?

We have, yes.

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When attunement was actually needed, did you have room to actually offer help, instead of just urging everyone to be nightbane attuned?

We were working out a rotation system with House Harpell to make sure we got everyone attuned.

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c) Since those of you making the rules are mostly not part of the kara runs, do you know exactly how prepared each player is, and how much effort they're contributing to the run?

Multanis - fully potted, despite pretty good healing gear. Always. Late once when he had pc problems.
Lightlady - sorry chris, but you still don't have the bonus heal right now.
Detector - I've heard him mention lack of mana pots twice now. Late a few times.
iaretankgood - in very good pvp and crafted gear, available to help us make up 10 whenever we need.

Nice deflection from the topic at hand.

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d) So most of the officers are part of another, more successful kara run that doesn't invite anyone else to play, doesn't have the sign up problems this team 2 run is facing right now, probably didn't see the difference in effort the lurkers and non lurkers friends are putting into this kara run.

Way, way off the target.

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I'm going to repeat what I said earlier. You're being hypocrites. Prove me wrong. Find a spot for weaker players and help them more in your elite runs.

Already in process.

[multanis]

All that I have to say is Thanks.
Thanks for let me in since the first lurkers kara 2 run.

Seems your healers showed so, to avoid more of that "guild and non guild" comments Im out.
Have been fun.

Peace. The Tree.
Mult.

[Tal]

Folks we seem to have a HYUGE misunderstanding going on. Can folks please dispense with the goodbyes and sit down and talk rationally about this?

I can understand completely where Weatherine and Holy are coming from. This seems high-handed and hypocritical. From our viewpoint things that were promised to happen did not. I evidently wasn't as clear when I gave my blessing to the raid leadership for a second run that I wanted to know about problems such as undergeared, unprepared or missing/no show Lurkers.

I do want to know all of these things and they have not been communicated to me as I had expected.

It remains that I would like to see preference given to my Lurkers and our allies for a Lurker lead run.

Multanis> From everything I have seen talking to people on the run and two of my officers you are a fine healer and have done a great job on the Karazhan runs. I'd like you to reconsider sticking around while we talk things over and try to better enable more successful runs.

Most folks don't know but the "elite run" has asked to pull folks in from your run into our own and to put some of our veterans in your run to help balance things out. It was decided to give the Lurker 2 run more time to find its group composition before this was tried because it didn't want to be seen as gutting your run to help our run.

I'm going to be talking with House Harpell about the run we do with them and their second run. I'd like to talk with Holy and Sabra about this secondary run. I'm confident with a little patience we can work things out satisfactorily.

[Zyn]

Sabra, hun, I just dont think Lurkers people are getting WLed often enough to warrant this type of action. It has only happened VERY rarely when we dont need three healers, or some such instance. As in, Lightlady gets WLed for Iaretankgood maybe b\c we need the DPS terribly on Curator to have a shot at downing him.

This however, as far as I can see, will happen less and less as time goes on - Mainly for the fact that most of us are getting upgrades and our DPS is getting better every week. This week we basically one shotted every boss we fought -- Started at Moroes, went to Opera and wiped on R and J b\c we'd never done them before -- then came in for the first real attempt and rolled then, then we went to Curator and rolled him too.

The issue that Pen was talking about wasnt concerning being WLed -- it was about being replaced by another Lurkers member when he was 29 minutes late for the invite time (7:15 -- he showed at 7:44. We were suppsoed to replaced him at 7:35 but Winkle was more patient.) I get this feeling that Pen wanted us to remove Multanis and invite him even tho he was late. IMO -- Tough #$%&, be on time and youll the invite you were rostered to get bro (No offense there Pen, even if the tone is sharp).

So now we've got this 12-13 man group of people who rotate around each week to run KZ -- however some people have been MUCH more instrumental to our successes than others initially. One of the people that has come to be our rock as far as healing is concerned is Multanis; he's ALWAYS on time, always prepared with consumables, always stays until the end, and honestly is one of the best healers Ive ever played the game with. We have to replace him on the roster for someone much less qualified for the position, just because the person who wanted to get in has a certain guild tag and whined a bit? I dont really agree with that dear. Ive seen Multanis take wipe after wipe with us due to bad strats or careless mob position and I dont think the work he has put into KZ with us should be thrown away over something this trivial.

People dont get WLed often for non guildies -- last nights roster should have been: Holy, Arrock, Mav, Zynli, Weather, Sabra, Popar, Shadowmagix, Pen, Multanis -- But Pen was late so Bleeds was invited, and Shadowmagix signed up late. What sucks is the sign up thread was posted too late IMO so Magix wasnt given ample time to sign up for this thing. We have to start posting the sign up thread over the weekend imo and the problem will go away.

I dont want to risk sounding infantile, and I dont think I will -- However, Holy has done a pretty decent job of rotating in Lightlady, etc and has tried his best. Maybe we can have someone else roster it for a bit and see how it goes. What I will say is this, Multanis should be rostered every time he signs up -- Which I will urge him to continue to do, but if he is waitlisted continuously (sp?) for people who are less able, less helpful, less patient, and less prepared than he is -- I wont be signing up myself. I consider it a moderate injustice to leave him on the sidelines at all, let alone for a whole weeks worth of KZ. I hope this was legible, love you guys to death and while I understand where the decision is coming from -- I dont think the case at hand occurs enough to warrant the decision even being made.

-Zyn

[Zyn]

All that I have to say is Thanks.
Thanks for let me in since the first lurkers kara 2 run.

Seems your healers showed so, to avoid more of that "guild and non guild" comments Im out.
Have been fun.

Peace. The Tree.
Mult.

Please continue to sign up for KZ runs here at LL, Ill do my absolute best to make sure you're on the roster - you have my word.

-Zyn

[Sabra]

I repeat:

I'm opening the floor for your input, and I hope you will share your thoughts.

Please don't act like this is a done deal. We're supposed to be talking here. Exchanging ideas. Resolving a situation. Up until people just sort of starting reacting, nothing had been decided.

The officers will have input on our decisions, of course, as they do with all events that run under a Lurkers flag. But I'm sure they will support the decision this raid group makes even if they ask for a tweek here and there.

If the only decision we make is to get pissed and dump the raid, that's just a shame.

Having spent time raiding with an alliance that didn't always have everything out on the table or solicit group input for their decisions, I thought group discussion and resolution would make sense. Don't prove me wrong please.

[Sabra]

EDIT: This run is on hold till some of this is resolved. --Mav and Zynli

Note 2: By the way, if anyone is unhappy that Detector wasn't in the raid last night, after being rostered, he didn't get in the raid because he didn't make it on time, and Selendra came off the waitlist. End of story on that, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure the officers will concur.

Note 3: Also, discussion and input were asked for. What we got was people quitting, and ranting. Is that really how you give input when asked?

Noted, Guys.

Mav, Zyn - Please hold off on the Detector stuff. It's unwarranted and too many conclusions are being drawn about the motives for his complaint. Thus far every conclusion that I've read has been 180 degrees off target. This is why I wanted to talk about it last night in raid. Let's all refrain from making Pen the problem. He is not the problem. He is pointing out a problem and he is not the only one who has pointed it out to me.

We need to respond, not react and let's not make anyone guilty please.

[Mavfin]

Noted, Guys.

Mav, Zyn - Please hold off on the Detector stuff. It's unwarranted and too many conclusions are being drawn about the motives for his complaint. Thus far every conclusion that I've read has been 180 degrees off target. This is why I wanted to talk about it last night in raid. Let's all refrain from making Pen the problem. He is not the problem. He is pointing out a problem and he is not the only one who has pointed it out to me.

We need to respond, not react and let's not make anyone guilty please.

I understand his complaint, perfectly. I posted what I did to make sure that the issue of Pen not getting into last night's raid, even though he was rostered, was covered sufficiently.

Yes, there are other issues, but that quote stands.

[Thamelas]

All that I have to say is Thanks.
Thanks for let me in since the first lurkers kara 2 run.

Seems your healers showed so, to avoid more of that "guild and non guild" comments Im out.
Have been fun.

Peace. The Tree.
Mult.

I agree with Multanis here. I'm done too. As a matter of fact its why I didnt go the last run. I think I got more of the grief because you guys NEED a healer and anyone can DPS... Why should I bother to go when I am told that if nice stuff drops it will go to guild members first. I understand to issue but why should I have to buy pots, bandages and pay for repairs just to be able to be there and get nothing?

"So why is the "other" warlock here anyway?"

Later all. Weatherine and Holyrain feel free to pst me anytime.

[Shorty]

I can not believe this got this way. This entire situation was not handled properly and got blown way out proportion. I hope the time off helps out. And if any of you ever need me I'm here for you guys.


See you at the next kara run.:)

[Tal]

I agree with Multanis here. I'm done too. As a matter of fact its why I didnt go the last run. I think I got more of the grief because you guys NEED a healer and anyone can DPS... Why should I bother to go when I am told that if nice stuff drops it will go to guild members first. I understand to issue but why should I have to buy pots, bandages and pay for repairs just to be able to be there and get nothing?

"So why is the "other" warlock here anyway?"

Later all. Weatherine and Holyrain feel free to pst me anytime.

Wait a second. You were told that you must pass on drops to guild members first? Who told you this?

[Zyn]

Why should I bother to go when I am told that if nice stuff drops it will go to guild members first. I understand to issue but why should I have to buy pots, bandages and pay for repairs just to be able to be there and get nothing?

Two things: No one ever said you wouldnt get anything, as a matter of fact, I campaigned to have some cloth DPS stuff drop so we could hook you up for the time you had spent helping us -- There was more of a prioritizing for loot truthfully, we need the right things to end up in the right hands. You lost two rolls I believe, but got at least one set of hands for the three weeks you were active with us. So its not like you "got nothing." No one told you things would go Guildies first, so dont pretend that we did. Either you misconstrued what was being discussed, or youre being childish.

Also, buying pots and paying for repairs is something anyone in any raid is going to have to do so they can attain the edge they may or may not need to have so they can win. It isnt just something only "we" do. Ive seen people wait months for a single drop, or longer -- before anything useful for them can be attained. You spent three weeks, 2 days a week (at most) for a nice drop. At least now I know all you wanted us to be was a #$%&ing loot train. Enjoy the rest of your experience in 5 mans, b\c I personally dont have time for someone whining about loot when the things they lost went to other people who also could use them just as well, if not better, as you could.

[Zyn]

Wait a second. You were told that you must pass on drops to guild members first? Who told you this?

lol No one did. We went on ffa rolling system, but if someone still hadnt gotten anything and had been active they were given priority on an item if they wanted it and it was appropriate for their class/build.

-Zyn

[Popar]

Wow this situation certainly exploded. The last thing in the world I want right now is raid/guild/alliance drama, so I'm going to take my leave as well. GL on Kara guys

[Thamelas]

I agree with Multanis here. I'm done too. As a matter of fact its why I didnt go the last run. I think I got more of the grief because you guys NEED a healer and anyone can DPS... Why should I bother to go when I am told that if nice stuff drops it will go to guild members first. I understand to issue but why should I have to buy pots, bandages and pay for repairs just to be able to be there and get nothing?

"So why is the "other" warlock here anyway?"

Later all. Weatherine and Holyrain feel free to pst me anytime.

I'm not crying about any damn thing. I know that buying repairs and pots are part of the game, but its with the understanding that you have a shot at stuff. I just wanted a fair shot at drops, but you specifically told me that drops would be given to guild members. So screw you, your attitude, and your damn backpedaling.

All in all the people I met were great, and I do thank the people I raided with greatly for the gloves that I got.

I really resent the fact that you think I considered you guys a loot train, when all I asked for was a fair shot at things I could use.

[Zyn]

I'm not crying about any damn thing. I know that buying repairs and pots are part of the game, but its with the understanding that you have a shot at stuff. I just wanted a fair shot at drops, but you specifically told me that drops would be given to guild members. So screw you, your attitude, and your damn backpedaling.

All in all the people I met were great, and I do thank the people I raided with greatly for the gloves that I got.

I really resent the fact that you think I considered you guys a loot train, when all I asked for was a fair shot at things I could use.

And when you were active four things dropped that were useful to you -- A ring, a wrist, the gloves you got and the token for the T4 hands.

You lost the rolls on the ring and wrist, won the hands and then Weatherine was awarded the t4 token because at that point, 4 weeks in, she hadnt recieved anything. You dont like it? I dont give a #$%&. Im not backpedelling, I dont backpedel. I never told you you didnt have a shot at ANYTHING, I said if something dropped that was useful to someone who hadnt as of yet gotten anything (Guildy or not) they would probably recieve it first. Deal with it.

Holy asked me to come along on the KZ runs, which I did happily just to see more of the place. However, he asked me to get a bit more involved (It might have been that I offered to help more, but regardless) and I did. I tried to help organize people and most importantly handle the loot system for us -- which other than you, no one has had any issue with. Or at least no issue theyve voiced. It isnt easy keeping 13-14 people all happy with 10 man instance and I tried to alleviate the pressure on Holy whenever and however possible. But, to have someone like you come along after theyve been unhappy and just voice your opinion now, is ridiculous. Speak up and be accounted for or shut your mouth and get back to Botanica or wherever you were before we asked you to come along. Dont say screw me because your dice werent working properly for you on whatever evening. Facts are facts, the instance in the first 3-4 weeks was VERY stingy with Cloth DPS and Plate drops (And still is to some degree.)

You dont like the way I did things, fine. Now find some likeminded people to support your theory, which is so off-kilter it seems to me you have your head so far up your ass that youre wearing yourself as a hat -- If you cant find people to support the way you feel, and I dont think youll be able to, then find 9 people and build your own run. Being in with us shouldve been considered a privelege just to see the instance, not a chance to grab anything you can get your hands on and then bitch and whine when it doesnt go your way everytime. Enjoy wiping to Moroes trash mobs.

[Tal]

Okay I've seen enough now that the insults are flying to shut this down. I'll be making a new thread to have a constructive discussion over how to better manage the Karazhan runs. All of you are welcome to stay and and discuss this rationally in the new thread. Flames, insults and less than civil discourse in the new thread will lead to more closures.