Illidan down by Nihilum!

[nobbie]

Illidan down by Nihilum:
http://www.nihilum.eu/

[Skandranon]

Black Temple horrendously undertuned, news at 11.

[nobbie]

Black Temple horrendously undertuned, news at 11.

I think that Nihilum is certainly not a measure, and according to Tigole, Blizzard wants us to "beat the encounters" (before the next xpac is out);)

[Delc]

I think that Nihilum is certainly not a measure, and according to Tigole, Blizzard wants us to "beat the encounters" (before the next xpac is out);)

3 weeks is a bit fast even for Nihilum. Thats just a bit more than 2days/boss. Plus I think they have made good progress in Hyjal at the same time.

[Skandranon]

I think that Nihilum is certainly not a measure, and according to Tigole, Blizzard wants us to "beat the encounters" (before the next xpac is out);)

If you've been tracking BT progression, every guild that kills Kael basically flies about 10 bosses deep into Hyjal/BT, some with undermanned raids. People are killing raid bosses in 2 to 3 pulls with ridiculous numbers like eight people left standing for half the fight. The encounters should be beatable, but they should be challenging, too. I don't raid to crack pinatas for loot. The process of learning an encounter and then finally beating it is what's fun about raiding.

I'm not saying that people should be blocked for months, but look at it this way. Killing Nefarian, C'thun, Twin Emps, a number of other fights, all felt great. When they finally went down, there was a sense of accomplishment, an exhilarating rush. It would have be much less so if they'd died on the second try. Everyone talks about their first-kills of certain bosses, but no one ever lists their first Grobbulus kill as their best experience ever, because you could basically 1-shot him without knowing anything about what he did. That's less fun than having to take a couple raids to learn abilities, devise strategies, and having it all come together for a win.

[Legedi]

It basically means there we no gear checks, or artifical limits placed on any of the bosses. 4H had a gear check of needed 8 warrior with 4 T3. I forget which, but some bosses originally had 1-2 hours limit of attempts. All it means is once you get into BT it is only a skill and time check. Nihilum obviously is as skilled as they come. They also have a crazy amount of time to put into raiding.

While being only a skill/time check isn't a bad thing (actually better than a lot of the cock blocks they have put in the past). It's a bit frustrating to see that a guild has already "won" BC, while most of us have hardly scratched the surface of raids offered in the expansion.

[nobbie]

Right, but don't forget that you need to do a lot of (heroic) attunement stuff to even see those instances from the inside. That's a long way for the average player, most of which haven't even completed Karazhan, Gruul's or Magtheridon's Lair yet. Let's furthermore assume that xpac 2 is out in summer/autumn 2008, then the whole instance tuning is on the right way methinks.

[Bolty]

I don't raid to crack pinatas for loot. The process of learning an encounter and then finally beating it is what's fun about raiding.

Man I wish more people felt that way.

That's less fun than having to take a couple raids to learn abilities, devise strategies, and having it all come together for a win.

I have no doubt that TBC raiding is easier, mostly because it sounds like the gear checks have been thrown out. But I wonder how much of this is perspective.

If vanilla WoW had been released with raid teams of the level of experience, knowledge of raid mechanics, dedication to raiding every single day of the week, and teamwork they have now but at the moment of inception, and assuming Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'Qiraj, and Naxxramus were all out at that time with the artificial difficulty or time cockblocks removed (Quintessence requirements in MC, Vael 1-hour time limit, Onyxia Scale Cloaks, unbeatable C'Thun, resistance checks without any real resistance gear available, etc), how quickly would the content have been smashed?

A guild like Nihilum, existing in its current state, would have smashed Molten Core in less than a week. Blackwing Lair? Toast the next week. MAYBE C'Thun would have slowed them a raid lock...maybe, but likely not, since that's less a gear check than a skill check.

Blizzard removed a number of lame blocks they've used in the past and made encounters more about execution than gear. Guilds made up entirely of players who would make me look like a scrub (and I consider myself a damn good player) are just destroying it.

As Seiki said, one of the side effects is the utter demoralization of lesser guilds. It's hard to be motivated when you're wiping in SSC or Magtheridon and another guild out there is 4-5 full raid instances ahead of you and has "beaten" TBC already. It's not so much of an epeen-contest, it's more of a "I could be so much further along if I were playing with more dedicated people" sort of thing. Even though people don't realize that guilds like Nihilum play on such a different plane of existence that comparing yourself to them is like comparing how you play basketball to Michael Jordan. These guys' LIVES are World of Warcraft. Make fun of them all you want, but the fact is that they play this game for a living, they're better at it than you are, and it's up to you if that bothers you or not. :)

-Bolty

[Warlock]

I guess they were prepared...

[Sword_of_Doom]

If you've been tracking BT progression, every guild that kills Kael basically flies about 10 bosses deep into Hyjal/BT, some with undermanned raids. People are killing raid bosses in 2 to 3 pulls with ridiculous numbers like eight people left standing for half the fight. The encounters should be beatable, but they should be challenging, too. I don't raid to crack pinatas for loot. The process of learning an encounter and then finally beating it is what's fun about raiding.

I'm not saying that people should be blocked for months, but look at it this way. Killing Nefarian, C'thun, Twin Emps, a number of other fights, all felt great. When they finally went down, there was a sense of accomplishment, an exhilarating rush. It would have be much less so if they'd died on the second try. Everyone talks about their first-kills of certain bosses, but no one ever lists their first Grobbulus kill as their best experience ever, because you could basically 1-shot him without knowing anything about what he did. That's less fun than having to take a couple raids to learn abilities, devise strategies, and having it all come together for a win.

There are two factors to Nihilum's succes: 1. They have unlimited playtime (or at least it seems like it) and 2. They tested much of this content on the PTR in unbuffed Tier 5.

So yes BT is horribly untuned thats a great statement.

For me the pinnacle of raiding was Naxxrammas. It took my guild 6 weeks of constantly wiping on the 4H before we finally put it all together to kill them. There is no encounter other than C'Thun that has took so long to learn. Sapphiron and Kelthuzzad went much faster because of the huge learning curve 4H was.

So far in TBC raiding i have seen nothing challenging like the 4H or C'Thun. Granted i am not that far into Serpentshrine or Tempest Keep but all the fights i have been engaged in have been built on previous principles i have learned in Naxxrammas.

Perhaps the raiding challenge will never be there again. I wondered and debated whether 25 people raid content would be easier or harder than 40 and i am going to have say i was right, its easier. Putting together 25 capable people is much easier than 40. Nihilum in a recent interview has said much the same thing. Also i read they carry a roster of 60 and do a lot of raid stacking on every encounter.

The guild i am currently in carries a roster of 30 and we have 5 Rogues, yes i said that 5 Rogues. But were raiding more for fun than competition now as i only raid 3 days a week (about 12 hours or so). So there is no raid stacking with us and it makes encounters like the Lurker Below fun because its a much harder fight when you have more melee than ranged. Its cake if you were all ranged.

Anyways, i like the new patch, its the best one so far, and because i can no longer raid 5 to 6 nights a week i am completely fine with it being much easier. I am just glad i got to try the hardest raid content any MMO has produced:)

[Jester]

Boo. Poor show, Blizzard.

-Jester

[Icebird]

Tigole posted to a thread on the Elitist Jerks forums (entitled "Pace of raiding progession" or something similar). It's worth reading.

The problem in a nutshel is: how do you design content that challenges the best guilds while still being accessible to the larger raiding population?

One of the examples Tigole uses is the Four Horseman encounter. This is generally regarded as the pinnacle of Blizzard encounter design. It tooks weeks for guilds to learn how to beat it, but it required no tuning at all. However he pointed out that the expansion came out before the large majority of raiding guilds even reached the 4 Horseman - and you're run of the mill guild might have been less happy with the raid stacking required. (On Malygos, I believe only one guild ever even attempted the Four Horseman).

I can understand the bleeding edge guilds being disappointed that Black Temple has not turned out to be Naxxramas 2.0. But for say a guild like mine, it gives us hope that we might defeat Illidan before the next expansion comes out. One of my great disappointments is that I only got to experience half the encounters in Naxxramas before the expansion removed any incentive to go back there.

Chris

[Gorthag]

I can understand the bleeding edge guilds being disappointed that Black Temple has not turned out to be Naxxramas 2.0. But for say a guild like mine, it gives us hope that we might defeat Illidan before the next expansion comes out. One of my great disappointments is that I only got to experience half the encounters in Naxxramas before the expansion removed any incentive to go back there.

I agree, it's fantastic news for the vast majority of WoW players that the Black Temple was beaten so quickly. Blizzard is probably happy too as I can't imagine the designers/artists of Naxx were satisfied with only a tiny portion of players ever experiencing it, and the producers will see it as better value for their development dollar.

[Brista]

Black Temple horrendously undertuned, news at 11.

Blizzard evidently decided to accept this view and have adjusted the difficulty upwards in a hotfix

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...292919579&sid=1

[Skandranon]

Blizzard evidently decided to accept this view and have adjusted the difficulty upwards in a hotfix

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?t...292919579&sid=1

Except that they left the pinatas alone (Supremus in particular is 10-mannable and roughly on the same difficulty as Karazhan) and turned Gurtogg Bloodboil into a genuine cockblock. That's not a solution at all.

Who knows what they're thinking?

[Lissa]

Who knows what they're thinking?

I can tell you, they aren't.