Imp. Fireball and Imp. Frostbolt damage coefficient changes

[Skandranon]

Any shadow priest that shifts out to heal, does any healing, and shifts back into shadowform has just spent a bucketload of mana and global cooldowns not doing any dps; that we have the versatility to do this -at the expense of both the damage we can do AND the healing power we provide- should not be a convincing argument.

That's a deliberate misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Obviously I'm not meaning that a priest can flip back and forth all the time and on every pull: that's stupid. ima_nerd summarized what I mean: between pulls, or depending on the encounter, shadow priests can switch and help where they're needed. Nowhere is the best illustrated than in the Arcatraz. There's a room there with two bosses, one with a lot of hit points but which deals relatively little damage, and the other which deals an extraordinary amount of damage. You fight them one at a time. In my groups there, the shadow priest simply swaps into heal gear and heals on the latter fight, then swaps back into DPS gear for the other. A couple of the trash pulls there are healing-intensive, a couple are DPS-sensitive. Wherever is required, the shadow priest goes healing or DPS.

Granted, it's not great healing. But you don't need great healing. You just need some, enough to push the team to a win. And that's what the shadow priest provides. I can't count the number of times that the main healer would go down to environmental damage or RSTS attacks, and the shadow priest would shift out and heal the tank through the last 20% of the boss' health. Again: compared to a holy priest, yeah, the healing is inefficient and of low intensity. But it's HEALING, and it's directly responsible for turning a loss into a win. Thorngrin the Tender; Terestrian Illhoof; Pathaleon - I can go all day listing encounters that temporarily disable a single player. If that's the healer, the shadow priest can shift out, sacrificing DPS, and keep the tank up long enough for the main healer to be active again. If the main healer dies early in a fight, the shadow priest can shift out, chug mana pots and main-heal: not well, but well enough.

I can't do that. Rogues can't do that. So please have some sympathy for DPS classes without a "save the day" button?

I'm not familiar with warlock trees, but I was under the impression that dps warlocks (and they do exist) were more destruction than affliction based.

Every warlock in my guild is all about maximizing their damage, and to a man, they are Affliction specced.

[lfd]

That's a deliberate misinterpretation of what I'm saying.

Sorry; it was not intended to be.

What I'd like to do now is quote the rest of your post and replace every instance of "shadow priest" with "feral druid", and ask what the difference is. I find it astonishing that people would call for nerfs of other classes simply because they feel their own pet class should be better, instead of enjoying the combined power it brings to their groups.

I can't do that. Rogues can't do that. So please have some sympathy for DPS classes without a "save the day" button?

I do. I just don't understand the anguish that people feel when a class they believe shouldn't come close to them for healing or dps can actually do so. I've never felt as overpowered as a hunter or warlock or feral druid. I've felt useful, though. And even accepting all your arguments (and thank you for persisting in explaining them to me), it still feels like Class A complaining that Class B is almost-but-not-quite nearly as good as them, and therefore Class B should be nerfed or Class A buffed, and that's never-ending.

Or is it that you now consider priests to be a hybrid class, and as such should be toned down so they're not as effective as single-focus classes?

Every warlock in my guild is all about maximizing their damage, and to a man, they are Affliction specced.

I wish I could send our warlocks on a crash course in How Not To Suck In Raids with your warlocks.

[Skandranon]

What I'd like to do now is quote the rest of your post and replace every instance of "shadow priest" with "feral druid", and ask what the difference is. I find it astonishing that people would call for nerfs of other classes simply because they feel their own pet class should be better, instead of enjoying the combined power it brings to their groups.

There's no difference. As I said, I find the argument equally convincing that cat druids should do much less damage than rogues. Actually, the argument is even more convincing because cat druids don't use mana to DPS, and can combat resurrect for even more "save the day" power. Tank druids are a little bit different, because they can't shift out while tanking or they get instantly splattered.

As for calling for a nerf, that's not the case. I'd take a buff, or even, hell, going back to the point of this thread - not being nerfed.

And even accepting all your arguments (and thank you for persisting in explaining them to me), it still feels like Class A complaining that Class B is almost-but-not-quite nearly as good as them, and therefore Class B should be nerfed or Class A buffed, and that's never-ending.

Pre nerf, shadow priests were almost-but-not-quite as good, and better against multiple tanked targets, and I was fine with that. What I have a problem with is shadow priests being better against all forms of enemies, and especially in the all-important single-target category. That isn't combined power; a minmaxing raid leader will bring another shadow priest. And it will happen.

As my guild was foraging through Naxx pre-2.0, when warlock and hunter damage was poor, we'd regularly purge nearly all the locks and hunters out of the raid on DPS check bosses, replacing with rogues, DPS warriors or mages. It's what we needed to do to get the kill. I am under no illusions that this kind of thing will disappear.

Or is it that you now consider priests to be a hybrid class, and as such should be toned down so they're not as effective as single-focus classes?

Frankly, a lot of classes have hybrid elements - some specs are, and some specs aren't. Pre 2.0, the best hybrid class in the game was the Warrior, of all classes. They're still pretty good that way now. Shadow priests, feral druids, etc. certainly have the versatility to be hybrids. Holy priests? Basically not. There are single-focus classes/specs in the game (rogue; mage; heavy protection warrior; holy priest, just to name a few) - shouldn't you be the best at what you do when you forfeit everything else?

Basically, my answer is: yes, Shadow priests are hybrids and could be toned down, OR mages could be adjusted up or just NOT NERFED in order to stay slightly ahead. A reason needs to exist for someone to say, "Yes, I want a mage filling this spot in my raid" and especially in raids where Polymorph is typically worthless, that reason has to be damage. What else can I do in a fight?

On that topic, I approved of the increase in warlock and hunter damage in 2.0. Like mages, they bring little else but damage to raids, and the massive degree to which they were behind rogues and mages pre-2.0 didn't sit well with me. I still think they should be slightly behind mages because of 1) healthstones, more health, soulstones, bloodpact and 2) pet damage, more armour, more health, respectively, but the current state (where warlocks are massively ahead, and hunters are basically on par) doesn't really bother me much. When you get down to it, locks being 150 DPS ahead bothers me less than shadow priests being 50 DPS ahead, because locks can't do anything else, emergency or not - and shadow priests can.

[Mavfin]

[snip]
What I have a problem with is shadow priests being better against all forms of enemies, and especially in the all-important single-target category. That isn't combined power; a minmaxing raid leader will bring another shadow priest. And it will happen.

As my guild was foraging through Naxx pre-2.0, when warlock and hunter damage was poor, we'd regularly purge nearly all the locks and hunters out of the raid on DPS check bosses, replacing with rogues, DPS warriors or mages. It's what we needed to do to get the kill. I am under no illusions that this kind of thing will disappear.
[snip]

I understand your points, Skan. However, I would prefer that Blizzard not adjust classes too much just because of what some min-maxing raid leader does. I hope you can understand that side of it. Critical Mass has done some neat things, and some of you are really cool people, but, CM doesn't represent a large percentage of WoW players, do you? I don't really think Blizz is done adjusting stuff. They just hotfixed the warlock imp, for example. It'll take 3-6 months for it all to shake out, I'm sure.

[Artega]

Priests also cannot sheep, root, or do a variety of things that Mages of all specs CAN do.

It seems that this is coming up along the same vein as the Warrior tanks vs. other tanks issue; maybe Mages will have to accept not being the absolute best, like we have:)

EDIT: Adding some replies, along the same lines, to what nerd said in later posts:

Shouldn't be a convincing argument? Unless the game has completely changed, Shadow Priests provided more than just DPS in a raid. In my raids, we had a couple Shadow Priests who would DPS on trash and spot heal on boss fights. Utility doesn't always have to be shown in one pull. Switching roles between pulls is more a more believable display of a Shadow Priests versatility anyway. A Mage's utility compared to a Shadow Priest's utility is far less so a Mage's damage should make up for it.

No, he shouldn't. He should contribute a worthwhile amount of damage to the raid but he shouldn't be able to compete with a Mage. This is the same reason why DPS Warriors beating out/competing with Rogues was stupid. All a Rogue does is damage. Plan and simple. Therefore, they have the potential to do the most damage. A Mage provides some utility, so they can't beat out a Rogue (on paper) for damage. Priests, Shadow or not, bring quite a bit of utility so they shouldn't beat out Mages. I don't like pigeon-holing classes... but a healer-oriented class shouldn't be able to compete with a Mage for damage then turn around 10 seconds later and provide heavy healing support.

Assuming this is all something besides doomcrying (and I'm banking on the Lounge's reputation to assume that it isn't:)), it looks a great deal like what they've done to Warriors. Mages, aside from their CC abilities and vending-machine roles, can do little but cast at something until it dies in a fire, flash-freeze, or whatever you'd call death by arcane magic. Warriors can do little but stand there and beat on something until it dies; instead of CC and vending duties, we have more HP and more Armor than other melee DPS. The better comparison would be Warrior tanking versus Palatanking and Teddytanking, especially in the new multi-mob pull instances. It's certainly doable with a Warrior (and, honestly, I find it more fun, because single or double mob pulls are boring as hell), but we don't have the ability to spam Swipe or Consecrate to build aggro on mobs that aren't the primary targets; instead, we have to rely on spreading single-target aggro abilities via tab-targetting, and tab-targetting just plain sucks.

[Artega]

It'll take 3-6 months for it all to shake out, I'm sure.

During which time, people of certain classes are getting the shaft, while people of other classes are having a great deal of fun killing everything in sight. Our $15 isn't as good as theirs? :(

[Mavfin]

During which time, people of certain classes are getting the shaft, while people of other classes are having a great deal of fun killing everything in sight. Our $15 isn't as good as theirs? :(

I didn't say that I *liked* the fact that it will take that time. But it will. Complaining won't change the facts.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Complaining won't change the facts.

But complaining *will* change the facts. Squeaky wheel and all that. It's a matter of where and how. Simply bitching about it here? Then I agree with you. The trouble is that the gripes have to get to, and be assessed by, Buzzard. And in the cesspools of the official forums, the meager nuggets of signal get totally swamped by the vast flow of noise.

I don't know if he ever said it or not, but "Anything that popular can't be all good" would make a good Yogism:)

--Pete

[Cybit]

The most disturbing trend against rogues I've seen now that I hit 70 is the taking away of utility of rogues. I did the Mechanar last night, and let me tell you, an exercise in frustration. I for the most part love my rogue; the ability to completely control the ebb and flow of a fight via stuns, poisons, and blinds is amazing. But when everything goes immune to stun and immune to poison, (though Delilah is not immune to wound poison, and that makes the fight with her trivial) and does absolutely disgusting amounts of melee AoE damage, it ruins my day. On several packs and even a boss in Mechanar, I was told to stand and chuck darts at the mobs. Why? Because I would last about 5 seconds tops in melee with those mobs. (and I have roughly 8.7k health buffed)

I'm sensing a trend towards crazy amounts of melee AoE damage, and that's where I'm starting to wish I had rolled a mage or a hunter. No amount of DPS increase for a rogue will help them, because they'll be too dead to do any.

I know Midori was annihilating me in DPS meters last night (she's 69, I'm 70, probably similar gear levels), and it's not too big of a deal in an instance where I can stun mobs to save a healer, or switch poisons to make a caster completely harmless, but in an instance where all I can do is damage....<sigh>

I'm not going to make a full on call about this for a couple of months, since itemization and experience (I haven't done all of the instances yet) may show something different. But I definitely don't like the trend so far.

[Watto44]

The most disturbing trend against rogues I've seen now that I hit 70 is the taking away of utility of rogues. [snipity snip]

This I think is the root of the problem for all DPS classes. And the frustraiting thing is it's not even a problem of class balance, more one of encounter/instance design. It seems to me that the "higher" the raid level, the more utility is devalued. A major factor in the way Blizzard increases the difficulty of an instance is by removing the ability of players to use crowd control, snares, etc. to control the way the fights progress.

By doing this, all the neat tricks and tactics that the various DPS classes have get slowly eroded and their roll becomes that of a straight-up damage monkey. That's where things get difficult. If can class can only provide damage through the entire duration of an instance, and another class can provide the same damage but also fill a different roll for different fights, then what reason is ther to bring the first class along? They don't provide anything that can't be found in a better, more flexible package.

Now, don't get me wrong: I'm a massive supporter of balance/feral druids and shadow priests. Personally, I love the fact that they can bring good DPS to a group. I don't even care if they're competing, even beating, DPS classes in the meters. What I'm not a fan of is removing large elements of a class's playstyle (rogue stuns/poisons and mage snares for example) through encounter design.

For me, the major enjoyment I get from my mage is using my snares, slows and crowd control. That's what makes the class so enjoyable for me. And that's exactly what is taken away from me as I progress in instances.

Honestly, I just want to play my whole class, not sit there casting the same one or two spells over and over and over again.:)

(NOTE: I have absolutely no knowledge of end game TBC content. It may well be that all this is rubbish, and if so I'll happily eat my words.:)I am also aware that, pre-TBC, there are exceptions to the snare/stun/utility thing. It still stands that, by and large, snares and stuns became, at best, useful once or twice an instance.)

PS. Gogo druid power. Rawrbomb coming to a zone near you!!