More on Warlocks in the Expansion

[Lissa]

The problem with this ties into the game economy, among other things.

Warlocks and Hunters can handle elites pretty easily, as far as outdoor elites go. I've watched my friends grind elite giants in Winterspring, elite dragonkin in Winterspring, and do all kinds of things most other classes simply can't do efficiently, if at all.

My Warrior can handle yellow elites only by blowing every cooldown he has, using bandages, potions, and buff consumables, and sometimes explosives and other engineering tricks. This is fine, since it lets me solo an elite quest every now and then (assuming it's a kill quest or a loot quest and not a numbers quest; Gammerita, mon! is a good example), but I think it's ludicrous that any class should be able to go through elite mobs of the same or similar level like a scythe.

EDIT: We'll just convienently ignore the other problems, like the leveling process:)

Not just Warlocks and Hunters can deal with Elites solo, I've done it with my Shadow Priest, I heard of Paladins doing it as well, and Frost spec'd mages playing the kiting game. A well geared Warrior or Rogue can take on a number of Elites solo (I've seen Tal many a time in Un'goro going after the Stone Warders). Soloing elites is not the purview of Hunters and Warlocks alone.

[Artega]

Not just Warlocks and Hunters can deal with Elites solo, I've done it with my Shadow Priest, I heard of Paladins doing it as well, and Frost spec'd mages playing the kiting game. A well geared Warrior or Rogue can take on a number of Elites solo (I've seen Tal many a time in Un'goro going after the Stone Warders). Soloing elites is not the purview of Hunters and Warlocks alone.

They can do it far more efficiently than any other class, and Stone Warders aren't exactly difficult as far as elites go. They have a lot of HP, but they don't do much damage.

Go solo demons in Winterspring like I've seen Hunters and Warlocks do in the past:)

[Artega]

I don't think having more HP and Resilience is going to change a lot in terms of PvE. Looking at Arena gear with defensive gems and Deep Thunder, an Arms Warrior will have about 11400 HP, 8800 Armor, and 325 or so Resilience, base. I don't see Warlocks (a traditionally HP-heavy cloth class) having much less HP than Warriors, and Warlocks also have a pet to hide behind in PvE. Hunters will likely have less HP than Warriors unless they get the HP talents, but again, they can hide behind their pets.

I'm not saying class diversity is bad. I just think it's absurd that two classes can have such a massive advantage in terms of leveling and farming over the other classes.

And don't bother with the "WoW is not a solo game" crap. Unless you're lucky enough to have someone to group, farm, and PvP with at all times, you're soloing. And when it comes to soloing, no other class comes close to Hunters and Warlocks. I'd be inclined to say Warlocks are the best, but BM Hunter pets are crazy.

[Lissa]

They can do it far more efficiently than any other class, and Stone Warders aren't exactly difficult as far as elites go. They have a lot of HP, but they don't do much damage.

Go solo demons in Winterspring like I've seen Hunters and Warlocks do in the past:)

I dunno, I've seen some Frost Mages take things apart far more easily and efficiently that a Hunter or Warlock will ever do. Likewise, with a Shadow Priest, if it's fearable, it's killable and this can be done just as effciently as a Hunter or Warlock as well.

Efficiency has more to do with your skill as a player and your spec more than a class issue cause I've seen a number of badly played Hunters and Warlocks that couldn't kill an elite several levels below them where a skilled Frost Mage or Shadow Priest takes apart even con or slightly above elites with nary a scratch in a fairly quick manner.

[Arethor]

I dunno, I've seen some Frost Mages take things apart far more easily and efficiently that a Hunter or Warlock will ever do. Likewise, with a Shadow Priest, if it's fearable, it's killable and this can be done just as effciently as a Hunter or Warlock as well.

Efficiency has more to do with your skill as a player and your spec more than a class issue cause I've seen a number of badly played Hunters and Warlocks that couldn't kill an elite several levels below them where a skilled Frost Mage or Shadow Priest takes apart even con or slightly above elites with nary a scratch in a fairly quick manner.

(This started out as a simple reply but I ended up getting a bit long winded. I hope it makes sense and actually conveys my point)


I'd be a bit inclined to agree with Lissa here. Your skill with the class plays a large part in it. My vision on Warlocks being overpowered is that they are not. Why is this? In PVE raiding up till recently I was lucky to break top 15 simply because mages/rogues/warriors and some hunters were simply out damaging me. On the PvP end I didn't feel overpowered because honestly, I suck in terms of PvP. I don't PvP often so my skills aren't honed. Very often I'm a fairly easy HK for anyone with skill. I'd agree that the warlock buffs have made us more on the threatening end of being overpowered, however I could say the same about a number of classes.

When I was leveling my paladin (Pre 2.0) I couldn't find a group for Stockades, so what did I do? I soloed the entire instance, doing all of the quests while being level appropriate. I was around level 55 Pre-2.0 and a large majority of that was me soloing with ease, including a handful of elite quests. It was quite similar when leveling my shaman (albeit not quite as easy in terms of survivability.) Killing speed may vary, but honestly that falls into the abilties your class has too. Paladins (Pre-2.0) didn't have any way to really increase killing speed other than Seal of Command. They've since gained Crusader Strike which helps to increase killing speed. However, should a class with only a few Offensive abilties directed at killing things quickly be as time efficient as a class with many offensive spells? I would say no. However on the other side of the coin the classes with the slower kill speeds are generally bounds ahead in terms of survivabity.

I recognize this is a sample size in my example, but I have 6 level 60 characters now and I find that they each excel in certain areas. I play a specific class if I have a particular goal in mind. Before I specced to Affliction i found it easier to farm on my lesser geared warrior because his killing speed was a bit slower, but he had almost no down time and the cost of farming was less. No drink breaks and no need to buy water. Yes, now that I'm affliction it's easier to farm on my warlock, but that is more of a spec issue in my mind. As a destruction warlock my pets were almost worthless for holding aggro or providing much benefit. I could just DoT up the mobs and let my Voidwalker hold aggro a little bit longer, but that was slow and unreliable. I wasn't specced for solo farming, so I wasn't as efficient at it. My paladin that I recently got to 60 is probably the king of survival, and yet he can do as much, if not more damage as an equally geared warrior. Does this make him overpowered? In Battlegrounds there have been many cases where my warlock gets jumped by a rogue and stunlocked to the point that I can't even get off an Instant Howl of Terror or Deathcoil before I drop. Does this make Rogues overpowered? A druid is capable of doing a good amount of DPS, shifting and healing, having almost the same survivabilty as a Paladin. Does this make them overpowered? I've seen a rogue on my server kill a T2 geared caster in around 2 seconds. Does this make rogues overpowered?

Each class is capable of some pretty extraordinary feats if specced and played properly for the task. That's not to say that some don't have inherent benefits in certain areas, but I find that it is as much the player that makes them overpowered as it is the class.

[Mavfin]

Not just Warlocks and Hunters can deal with Elites solo, I've done it with my Shadow Priest, I heard of Paladins doing it as well, and Frost spec'd mages playing the kiting game. A well geared Warrior or Rogue can take on a number of Elites solo (I've seen Tal many a time in Un'goro going after the Stone Warders). Soloing elites is not the purview of Hunters and Warlocks alone.

Heck, Lissa, Keshi can handle most *single* elites, especially if it's mostly physical damage. I soloed the Nerubian Overseer the other day, just barely, in tank gear. Stone Warders? They hit me for less than my block amount, therefore I have 60% avoidance or more in tank gear. Meh. The overseer just couldn't penetrate for enough damage fast enough.

I'm talking about that Warlocks and Hunters, (some mages, some other stuff, but not much) habitually go on to the next tier of elites. Demons in WS. Blue Dragons in WS. 2 at a time in Tyr's Hand. They can do another tier up that I can't even attempt w/o death, usually. It's not that I can do some of those things a little slower, or with more downtime. I do that anyway. Big deal. That's a consequence of my build. No, what irritates me is that my class/build in all epics can't even kill some of the stuff that new 60 hunters in blues can farm, and hunters/locks in epics farm w/o much effort.

That's how big the disparity. As far as skill, I guess you're all saying that I'm a complete n00b? If I'm such a n00b, why was I one of the first-kill Emps tanks for Avarice? This is an issue that anyone who's played a prot warrior or a *holy* priest extensively knows about, but those who haven't habitually tell us we're just n00bs.


This is not a new issue, but I do get tired of hearing that we're 'unskilled' or 'oh, this isn't a solo game' If this isn't a solo game, then why can *those* classes do that solo? If you don't play the game with RL friends, or with a built-in duo buddy, you solo. A lot.

Final Edit: at this point, I'll wait and see what the itemization is at 70, and see how things are.

[Tuftears]

My marksman hunter (with several epics and good blues) with a pet out can grind Silithus elite bugs, no problem, they die in about 20 seconds. A mend pet takes care of the damage your pet may have incurred.

My resto/feral druid (in epic feral gear) suffers through them, but can take them down with one cooldown used per bug, and the battles take several minutes.

Let's just face it, some classes are going to have a hard time soloing in 'raid' builds, and some are going to breeze through it because their raid builds are the same, or very close to, their solo builds. However, I'm not going to cry about that, I'm going to rustle up a partner and enjoy the duo action, because two people can get away with stuff that one can't.

[vor_lord]

Are you saying healing classes should kill as quickly as dps classes?

The original class design philosophy (and of course finding reference for this is impossible now) of Blizzard was that as far as soloing, they wanted total time in killing things repetitively to be relatively close. Certainly differences due to spec were expected -- if you specced for healing, you'd lose solo ability.

That means that taking into account downtime (more downtime for faster killing) things should be at least close.

They failed. Miserably right now in the case of warlocks and hunters.

Even if the philosophy was met, it still wouldn't help the poor raid healer. If you spec for DPS on nearly any class, you have a pretty solid farming/solo build. For classes that do DPS in raids, they are continually rewarded with better PvP and solo ability. Healers have always been screwed if they spec for raiding, sometimes worse than others. I'm not sure there is a way to fix this.

But hey, it's the price you pay to be a raid healer so everyone else has someone to blame for the wipe <_<


edit: Added "Even if the philosophy was met", without which that paragraph made no sense.

[Lissa]

Heck, Lissa, Keshi can handle most *single* elites, especially if it's mostly physical damage. I soloed the Nerubian Overseer the other day, just barely, in tank gear.

And I can't kill him Mav and I've tried several times. He hits way to hard for a Blueberry or a Warlock to survive and if the Warlock is trying to keep the Blueberry alive, the Warlock will likely draw aggro just by using Health Funnel to keep the Blueberry up. I haven't tried with Lissanna, but I bet a similar experience is in store.

Stone Warders? They hit me for less than my block amount, therefore I have 60% avoidance or more in tank gear. Meh. The overseer just couldn't penetrate for enough damage fast enough.

I'm talking about that Warlocks and Hunters, (some mages, some other stuff, but not much) habitually go on to the next tier of elites. Demons in WS. Blue Dragons in WS. 2 at a time in Tyr's Hand. They can do another tier up that I can't even attempt w/o death, usually. It's not that I can do some of those things a little slower, or with more downtime. I do that anyway. Big deal. That's a consequence of my build. No, what irritates me is that my class/build in all epics can't even kill some of the stuff that new 60 hunters in blues can farm, and hunters/locks in epics farm w/o much effort.

For the Demons, do you know what it takes for a Warlock to take one out solo and how long? We're talking the CoD, Banish 1 and Banish 2 game and hope that both Banishes last their requisite time (20 seconds and 30 seconds respectively) so that you have 10 second where CoD can tick down and hit, you can apply a new CoD, and then do the banish cycle again. From the Hunter perspective, it's use Serpent Sting 9, Arcane Shot 1, and kite up the road to Everlook and hope that the SS9 being applied every 15 seconds does enough to kill the demon, otherwise you're back to square one of either dying or FDing to shed aggro and then pull them up the road again. Those demons are not as easy as many people think to solo and it requires a bit of luck and a good deal of skill to deal with.

As to the Dragons, I've been up there and watched Warriors, Rogues, Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, Shamans, Paladins, Shadow Priests, and Druids all solo those mobs. What's been the fastest class to take down those dragons, Mages by far.

I've seen plenty of other classes take on two at a time at Tyr's hand as well, this is not something specific to Hunters and Warlocks. If anything, a Warlock taking on two at Tyr's hand is a very skill warlock because they are juggling fears between the two mobs and that's not an easy feat.

That's how big the disparity. As far as skill, I guess you're all saying that I'm a complete n00b? If I'm such a n00b, why was I one of the first-kill Emps tanks for Avarice? This is an issue that anyone who's played a prot warrior or a *holy* priest extensively knows about, but those who haven't habitually tell us we're just n00bs.

No, you're using an non-optimal spec for dealing with those mobs. It has nothing to do with your class, but more with your spec. Holy Priests typically solo by outlasting their opponents, not by beating them down quickly. This also leads to another aspect that you're missing, down time. A Holy Priest can come out of a fight ready for the next with topped of health and nearly topped off mana, a Warlock or Hunter will come out of a fight sooner, but they will likely have some kind of down time (either drinking, eating, or letting pet regenerate).

This is not a new issue, but I do get tired of hearing that we're 'unskilled' or 'oh, this isn't a solo game' If this isn't a solo game, then why can *those* classes do that solo? If you don't play the game with RL friends, or with a built-in duo buddy, you solo. A lot.

Final Edit: at this point, I'll wait and see what the itemization is at 70, and see how things are.

No, you're the one throwing around the unskilled, I'm calling it as it is, not having the optimal spec for doing it. As I noted above with your examples, I've seen other classes do what you're talking about, I've also shown where some of the things you talk about Hunters and Warlocks doing has an element of luck. In truth, probably the best class for outright killing anything is the Frost Mage. As the Frost Mages say, "if I can chill it, I can kill it." Spec has everything to do with success, skill also has some affect as well.

[Drasca]

hunters/locks in epics farm w/o much effort.

Well. They *are* epics, and hunter/locks ARE the rightfully advertised as the premier solo pve classes... Heck, in my prime I took on up to three elites at a time with my lock... and that was before death coil became so spammable.

If this isn't a solo game, then why can *those* classes do that solo

Actually, I believe most players start out choosing classes that seem cool, look good or the player identifies with. Solo doesn't really come in mind. No, it isn't a solo game. Go farm with friends. Its a LOT faster. Priest + mage pulls --> Extreme farming. Actually, I did priest + mage + lock quite on quite a few occasions, and just owned everything around us.

Lissa hit the nail on the head with spec, so I won't go there. Bite the bullet and partner up, as MMO's are innately social games and require more than one player more time total than you are solo'ing.

Oddly enough, Guild wars became extremely solo-able via hero followers with any skills/spells you're able to use across any class. So. Strangeness.

[vor_lord]

Holy Priests typically solo by outlasting their opponents, not by beating them down quickly. This also leads to another aspect that you're missing, down time. A Holy Priest can come out of a fight ready for the next with topped of health and nearly topped off mana, a Warlock or Hunter will come out of a fight sooner, but they will likely have some kind of down time (either drinking, eating, or letting pet regenerate).

I ran around Frostwhisper Gorge with a friendly neighborhood warlock. We went after the giants in there. He can solo one quickly and have full health and full mana (affliction spec). No need to tank it with a pet (he used succubus for some more damage and momentary distraction). Didn't cast fear or death coil.

He could do two at once and end with 70% health and 40% mana.

Necrali is a holy priest. I can kill one, barely, if my fears aren't resisted. We are similarly geared (T1/T2 mix).

It's not even close. His kills were 2x as fast, with zero downtime. Full health and mana.

[Kevin]

I ran around Frostwhisper Gorge with a friendly neighborhood warlock. We went after the giants in there. He can solo one quickly and have full health and full mana (affliction spec). No need to tank it with a pet (he used succubus for some more damage and momentary distraction). Didn't cast fear or death coil.

He could do two at once and end with 70% health and 40% mana.

Necrali is a holy priest. I can kill one, barely, if my fears aren't resisted. We are similarly geared (T1/T2 mix).

It's not even close. His kills were 2x as fast, with zero downtime. Full health and mana.

Marn has zero downtime on those giants as well. I just kill kill kill, mend pet, auto-shoot that one down or just use rank 1 arcane to regen mana, mend pet, all out kill kill kill, rinse and repeat.


The demons that can drop the eye are a little trickier, and depending if I'm beast or marks changes the approach a bit, but either spec and pet tank them down with some mend pet. Marks will generally end up having to do some kiting but it isn't required, some good mend pet usage and FD usage will get a marks through it, just keep scorpid sting up on the mob and the pet lasts significantly longer. Of course beast spec does solo a lot better than Marks. Beast is actually way too powerful now since the hunters personal damage is not that far behind a similar geared marks hunter and the pet is stupidly powerful now (125 DPS, 8K+ armor, 5K+ HP unbuffed is pretty crazy for a pet).

But yeah, I hear hunters talk about downtime, about having to drink or thinking that drinking now is faster than just pet tanking the next mob while you autoshoot, or just skipping an arcane or multi now and then. I've tried it. If I stop to actually drink I'll kill fewer mobs. I will use a bandage on the pet every now and then (or maybe more frequently if I'm on only elites but farming runecloth of non elites is completely trivial for a hunter and besides demonic runes are pretty much required for a hunter so you'll be killing enough Saytrs for cloth to keep you in runes for raiding that it's a non factor) to get back into things quicker and not use mana for mend pet, but I rarely have down time unless I'm fighting elites that are +2 or more above me. OK that isn't completely true, if I had to deal with a lot of whelps while farming the blue dragons or I got a patrol add or someone tried to train me I might have to stop to drink. The black dragons could make me pause a bit too because the debuff they put up on the pet can be quite annoying. But then again I don't think kiting is the most effective way for hunters to kill stuff, even if they are Marks or survival spec.

[Bob the Beholder]

I've spent some time as a 60 destruction 'lock, and they really aren't so overpowered. I killed people well, died really fast, etc..

Then I specced Felguard, and I was a golden, untouchable god. I went through three AB games with approximately four deaths, still wearing four greens, and one crafted epic. I then went on to farm 55 elites for an hour and a half--maybe 15 seconds of downtime every 5 or 10 mobs, for a quick health funnel. The felguard could basically solo them. But I dropped the kill time to maybe 15-20 seconds each, by throwing a couple of dots. It's just too much damage and control for still having so much survivability.

And, by all I hear, affliction's supposed to be even worse!

[Drasca]

I then went on to farm 55 elites for an hour and a half--maybe 15 seconds of downtime every 5 or 10 mobs,

Eh. 55e's pathetic to everyone. Have you ever put Felguard vs Hunter pet? HMM?

[Artega]

Eh. 55e's pathetic to everyone. Have you ever put Felguard vs Hunter pet? HMM?

Heavily dependant on type (caster or fighter), as well as special abilities they might possess.

And it's likely no other class besides a Hunter could grind them as efficiently.

[Drasca]

Heavily dependant on type (caster or fighter), as well as special abilities they might possess.

And it's likely no other class besides a Hunter could grind them as efficiently.

When's the last time you had trouble grinding on a 55e with any level 60 char? Efficiency notwithstanding (best to grind in a small party anyway, aoe + healer --> speed).

[Artega]

When's the last time you had trouble grinding on a 55e with any level 60 char? Efficiency notwithstanding (best to grind in a small party anyway, aoe + healer --> speed).

Not sure, really. I prefer grinding Alliance scum to grinding mindless AI mobs.

The problem that I see is that it's possible for Hunters and Warlocks to efficiently solo elite mobs that other classes must group up in order to farm efficiently.

[Drasca]

The problem that I see is that it's possible for Hunters and Warlocks to efficiently solo elite mobs that other classes must group up in order to farm efficiently.

That really sounds like a class feature than problem to me, as pve's fairly unbalanced all together. . . but given how satureted pve is with other opportunities not an overwhelming feature. Grind solo, Grinding with others is still faster. Grinding Alliance/Horde can reward better. Raiding may take most time. Etc.

[Brista]

Eh. Rogues --> just insta-nuke away, even pre death coil fear & 2 min timer and all that jazz. A decent warlock was a miniature army. Of course they've got extra relative power now, due to pre-bc talent changes.

What you REALLY don't realize is that the relative dps disparity extremely temporary, as this is pre-BC where spellcasters benefit far more from talent changes than weapon dependent classes.

Its like fighting against level 60 spells when everyone's equipped in level 50 gear. The advantage is now, but won't necessarily last. The balance of power will shift as new equipment rolls in, and soon there'll be new things to whinge on about.

I'm not sure that Warlocks will lose their current pvp advantage when we get level 70 gear. The main things coming is more stamina which has always been THE Warlock stat and anti-crit which for affliction locks at least doesn't slow them down in the slightest

I think Blizzard has always looked at population numbers when buffing and nerfing. Warriors are insanely popular and one can see why: the Hero archtype and a straightforward in your face playstyle. Warlocks have always been less popular than their power deserves. They're dps casters who don't have quite the punch of Mages. They're an "evil" archtype. They're extremely complicated, no other class has quite so many hotkeys and buttons to place. And the hated soulshard mechanic puts off a lot of players who foresee rolling a Warlock as being required to turn up to raids half an hour early to farm shards while the Warriors are pvping in WSG before demanding a summons.

I'm not sure it's wise to throw candy at classes that are unpopular. In games which have dozens of different classes it doesn't really matter that X class is underplayed - when someone brings one along it's really welcomed which is part of the satisfaction of playing one. Nor does it matter if the most popular class is actually pretty good

Blizzard seem driven to balance class populations whereas I feel there are far more important things to worry about like class balance and faction population

[Malakar]

I've done tests myself. You don't gain the 2nd point of imp. cast time. It is definitively 1.5s.

I just tested it with opposite results. Started the fight with imp shooting, then continually drained life, and counted the number of ticks in the combat log. Drain life had 9 ticks, firebolt had 11. That's about right for a 1 second cast time, considering the imp got the first hit in order to tank the mob so as not to interrupt my drain life, and considering user lag in refreshing drain life. What that test also says is that the imp's cast time is unaffected by damage interruption.

Furthermore if it were 1.5 second cast time, my imp's ~375 firebolts would be doing around 250dps, but recap is logging it at ~325-350 which with resists factored in would be about right for 1 sec cast time.


Although it may mean nothing it is also interesting to note that while firebolt is on autocast, you do not see the skill icon cooling down.