I've got a lvl 60 Undead Rogue(Sain) on Twisting Nether in addition to my lvl 60 Human Mage(Gybrosh) on Stormrage, and I primarily just want to use the Rogue for pvp, so the builds designed for just that are the builds I was most curious about. I have been using the 21/8/22 preparation build with bs/ambush and imp sap for the 5 man instances and UBRS since I didn't have any decent raiding guild I could join on the server.
Sorry this next part is a bit longer than I had intended, it basically tells of the hardest opponent I've ever faced with my rogue (aka a mage whopoing me) and kind of helps explain part of what I was thinking of for a build. If you don't feel like reading it just skip down to the "Actually On Topic Section".
I do pretty well with that build for the most part. Really the only one that could consistently cause me trouble and win was an at least 31 frost specced gnome mage who had up to Marshal pvp gear iirc. The main problem I had with him was of course he was always ice barriered and when I ambushed he was usually quick enough to respond that I couldn't immediately get in front and gouge him. So I'd ambush he'd frost nova immediately and blink away if I had vanish I'd use it and sprint though most of the time even that wasn't enough and I usually had these options:
1. Immediately charge him and try to cheap shot him.
2. Strafe to the side in an effort to circle around him and continue from there.
Now if I went with number one then it was usually pretty obvious I was doing that because for a split second while vanishing the mage can see your forward movement as long as you're holding forward, which usually means you're charging and he just walks forward and cone of colds me or frost novas me. At which point unless I have preparation ready I'm pretty screwed and he usually had another ice barrier to throw up by now so even if I do then it's like I'm starting the fight over with much lower life. If I don't have preparation he just frostbolts me about 1-3 times and I die. This happened about 90% of the time if I went with option one. I don't think there was a single time that he didn't do this if I did charge him, but I'm an optimist so I left the 10%.:)
If I chose option two he had rank 1 Blizzard macroed ready to toss out right where I was. This usually worked better and I tended to get away from this about 50% of the time. He sometimes wasn't fast enough to get me or I would move forward as I vanished to fake him out so he'd walk forward and cone of cold. Most times he did get me, and sprint was on cooldown so I couldn't get out of the area fast enough. Right here the fight gets a bit blurry because at this point it was pretty much chaotic and I usually started getting really anxious and desperate to kill him as fast as possible. I seldom won at this point, the main reasons being that not only did he have very good gear for pvp and a build specifically designed to dominate melee classes, but he also was very good at using the build to his advantage and my doom.:(
Actually On Topic Section
I just wanted to try and find a better build to deal with mages specifically with frost build since as long as I am getting the jump on them with stealth I can usually beat most other classes unless there is a serious equipment difference, and usualy then only Paladins and Warriors become a problem. Though I'm not sure if losing the burst damage of ambush/bs that I've grown accustomed to will change that.
For those of you who don't feel like going to the World of Warcraft webiste and through all the links to get to the 1.13 setup it's here World of Warcraft patch 1.13 Rogue Talent Trees and keep in mind that it allows you to put up to 61 points in because it's including the extra levels in the expansion. I almost made that mistake earlier today when I was messing with it :P. Though I would like to see any builds you guys think would work in the expansion too, I was primarily curious about those for the 1.13 patch before TBC release.
Obviously the 41 talent for the Subtlety tree would be a collosal help in taking down any casters specifically frost mages, so I was considering a primarily subtlety build with 0/5/46 focusing primarily on beginning with Garrote due to the new 3 second silence it gives and from there I'm not exactly sure what I should do, probably spec ghostly strike and start with that then sinister strike while they can't blink or frost nova. This would work best with a sword build obviously which I've never really done before since I've been 21/8/22 the entire game pretty much.
As such I really only know what I've read or seen in pvp videos so that means I know very little about how sword builds do against mages in reality. Also since this doesn't really look like a normal sword build I'm not sure if I've just left out most all of the abilities that make Swords a powerful build or not.
I'll list what skills I put in the 0/5/46 build for those who are curious here is the link and then the talents themselves and why I chose them:
Patch 1.13 Rogue Subtlety Build 0/5/46
Assassination (0)
Combat (5)
First Tier
-Imp Gouge (3/3) (Gouge is nice for stunning mages since they have to use Ice Block to Break out of it)
-Imp Sinister Strike (2/2) (This build would be really dependent on sinister strike so this is crucial)
Subtlety (46)
First Tier
-Oppurtunity (5/5) (For Garrote Opening)
Second Tier
-Elusiveness (1/5) (Had an extra point figured this was as good a place as any)
-Camoflauge (5/5) (The speed in stealth is crucial in pvp and the reduced cooldown is a nice bonus)
Third Tier
-Initiative (3/3) (More combo points is always nice)
-Ghostly Strike (1/1) (I'm not really sure how useful this skills is as I've haven't heard much about it)
Fourth Tier
-Imp Sap (3/3) (Instances and also kinda nice for cc without detection on flag guarders)
-Serrated Blades (3/3) (For more damage with swords, though I'll admit I've never really used Rupture)
Fifth Tier
-Heightened Senses (2/2) (Since I was looking to avoid spells as much as possible figured this might help)
-Preparation (1/1) (Being able to do two vanishes in a row or get all your cools back is really nice)
-Dirty Deeds (2/2) (Reducing the cost of Cheapshot and Garrote will help with both melee and casters)
Sixth Tier
-Master of Subtlety (3/3) (Was always a fan of burst damage right after stealth so thought this would help)
-Deadliness (4/5) (Increased attack power what's not to love?)
Seventh Tier
-Enveloping Shadows (3/3)
(The main reason I ever get pulled out of stealth in BGs is by accidentally getting too close to some <fill in the dps>'s aoe so I figured this would be pretty helpful even if it was a relatively small chance)
-Premeditation (1/1) (With Initiative could possibly have 5 combo points before they even notice me)
-Cheat Death (3/3) (Now if I have to toss out a last second blind I have a safety blanket)
Eight Tier
-Sinister Calling(5/5) (Hopefully this with Deadliness will help add lots of dps)
Ninth Tier
-Cloak of Shadows (1/1) (Finally done and 46 points later here we are charging a bewildered caster)
Thanks for reading the post and I'd appreciate any opinions on the subject. If you notice something I'm totally off about or you have experience with certain abilities I've chosen turning out really badly then let me know. This build quite possibly could end up having me out there essentially trying to kill people with butter knifes compared to other builds, so constructive criticism is gladly excepted. Also if anyone finds a good way to keep imp bs/ambush and still rock the mages let me know.
Gybrosh Out
Sorry this next part is a bit longer than I had intended, it basically tells of the hardest opponent I've ever faced with my rogue (aka a mage whopoing me) and kind of helps explain part of what I was thinking of for a build. If you don't feel like reading it just skip down to the "Actually On Topic Section".
I do pretty well with that build for the most part. Really the only one that could consistently cause me trouble and win was an at least 31 frost specced gnome mage who had up to Marshal pvp gear iirc. The main problem I had with him was of course he was always ice barriered and when I ambushed he was usually quick enough to respond that I couldn't immediately get in front and gouge him. So I'd ambush he'd frost nova immediately and blink away if I had vanish I'd use it and sprint though most of the time even that wasn't enough and I usually had these options:
1. Immediately charge him and try to cheap shot him.
2. Strafe to the side in an effort to circle around him and continue from there.
Now if I went with number one then it was usually pretty obvious I was doing that because for a split second while vanishing the mage can see your forward movement as long as you're holding forward, which usually means you're charging and he just walks forward and cone of colds me or frost novas me. At which point unless I have preparation ready I'm pretty screwed and he usually had another ice barrier to throw up by now so even if I do then it's like I'm starting the fight over with much lower life. If I don't have preparation he just frostbolts me about 1-3 times and I die. This happened about 90% of the time if I went with option one. I don't think there was a single time that he didn't do this if I did charge him, but I'm an optimist so I left the 10%.:)
If I chose option two he had rank 1 Blizzard macroed ready to toss out right where I was. This usually worked better and I tended to get away from this about 50% of the time. He sometimes wasn't fast enough to get me or I would move forward as I vanished to fake him out so he'd walk forward and cone of cold. Most times he did get me, and sprint was on cooldown so I couldn't get out of the area fast enough. Right here the fight gets a bit blurry because at this point it was pretty much chaotic and I usually started getting really anxious and desperate to kill him as fast as possible. I seldom won at this point, the main reasons being that not only did he have very good gear for pvp and a build specifically designed to dominate melee classes, but he also was very good at using the build to his advantage and my doom.:(
Actually On Topic Section
I just wanted to try and find a better build to deal with mages specifically with frost build since as long as I am getting the jump on them with stealth I can usually beat most other classes unless there is a serious equipment difference, and usualy then only Paladins and Warriors become a problem. Though I'm not sure if losing the burst damage of ambush/bs that I've grown accustomed to will change that.
For those of you who don't feel like going to the World of Warcraft webiste and through all the links to get to the 1.13 setup it's here World of Warcraft patch 1.13 Rogue Talent Trees and keep in mind that it allows you to put up to 61 points in because it's including the extra levels in the expansion. I almost made that mistake earlier today when I was messing with it :P. Though I would like to see any builds you guys think would work in the expansion too, I was primarily curious about those for the 1.13 patch before TBC release.
Obviously the 41 talent for the Subtlety tree would be a collosal help in taking down any casters specifically frost mages, so I was considering a primarily subtlety build with 0/5/46 focusing primarily on beginning with Garrote due to the new 3 second silence it gives and from there I'm not exactly sure what I should do, probably spec ghostly strike and start with that then sinister strike while they can't blink or frost nova. This would work best with a sword build obviously which I've never really done before since I've been 21/8/22 the entire game pretty much.
As such I really only know what I've read or seen in pvp videos so that means I know very little about how sword builds do against mages in reality. Also since this doesn't really look like a normal sword build I'm not sure if I've just left out most all of the abilities that make Swords a powerful build or not.
I'll list what skills I put in the 0/5/46 build for those who are curious here is the link and then the talents themselves and why I chose them:
Patch 1.13 Rogue Subtlety Build 0/5/46
Assassination (0)
Combat (5)
First Tier
-Imp Gouge (3/3) (Gouge is nice for stunning mages since they have to use Ice Block to Break out of it)
-Imp Sinister Strike (2/2) (This build would be really dependent on sinister strike so this is crucial)
Subtlety (46)
First Tier
-Oppurtunity (5/5) (For Garrote Opening)
Second Tier
-Elusiveness (1/5) (Had an extra point figured this was as good a place as any)
-Camoflauge (5/5) (The speed in stealth is crucial in pvp and the reduced cooldown is a nice bonus)
Third Tier
-Initiative (3/3) (More combo points is always nice)
-Ghostly Strike (1/1) (I'm not really sure how useful this skills is as I've haven't heard much about it)
Fourth Tier
-Imp Sap (3/3) (Instances and also kinda nice for cc without detection on flag guarders)
-Serrated Blades (3/3) (For more damage with swords, though I'll admit I've never really used Rupture)
Fifth Tier
-Heightened Senses (2/2) (Since I was looking to avoid spells as much as possible figured this might help)
-Preparation (1/1) (Being able to do two vanishes in a row or get all your cools back is really nice)
-Dirty Deeds (2/2) (Reducing the cost of Cheapshot and Garrote will help with both melee and casters)
Sixth Tier
-Master of Subtlety (3/3) (Was always a fan of burst damage right after stealth so thought this would help)
-Deadliness (4/5) (Increased attack power what's not to love?)
Seventh Tier
-Enveloping Shadows (3/3)
(The main reason I ever get pulled out of stealth in BGs is by accidentally getting too close to some <fill in the dps>'s aoe so I figured this would be pretty helpful even if it was a relatively small chance)
-Premeditation (1/1) (With Initiative could possibly have 5 combo points before they even notice me)
-Cheat Death (3/3) (Now if I have to toss out a last second blind I have a safety blanket)
Eight Tier
-Sinister Calling(5/5) (Hopefully this with Deadliness will help add lots of dps)
Ninth Tier
-Cloak of Shadows (1/1) (Finally done and 46 points later here we are charging a bewildered caster)
Thanks for reading the post and I'd appreciate any opinions on the subject. If you notice something I'm totally off about or you have experience with certain abilities I've chosen turning out really badly then let me know. This build quite possibly could end up having me out there essentially trying to kill people with butter knifes compared to other builds, so constructive criticism is gladly excepted. Also if anyone finds a good way to keep imp bs/ambush and still rock the mages let me know.
Gybrosh Out