Naxxramas

[Warlock]

My guild has raided Molten Core 68 times.  We started about 11 months after the game was released (If I'm remembering November 2004 as the release date).

It is entirely possible.
[right][snapback]108435[/snapback][/right]

OK. Without avoiding the timer, the game hasn't been out long enough for a single character to run any of the seven-day lockout instances a hundred times since there haven't been a hundred weeks since release.

[Thecla]

So now the raiders have to play solo?  And yet it is unreasonable to expect people who want to solo to raid?[right][snapback]108423[/snapback][/right]

Now there is a really silly argument, and you know it. No one is suggesting raiders have to solo, only that more solo-oriented players should have an alternative to raiding.

[Warlock]

I could just trot out the Shane Dabiri quote ...
[right][snapback]108427[/snapback][/right]

My apologies, it was a Kaplan quote, not a Dabiri quote.

"We want the game to be friendly to power gamers as well as casual gamers. Power gamers won't be able to acquire that über-artifact that lets them level mountains, but they might be able to get a sword of the same power that's available to a casual gamer -- only theirs bursts into flames when it's used."

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcra...681p4.html

End of the second last paragraph.

Though my point is less about specific statements than the general impression given about the game's advertised design goals, it helps to get my story straight on the details :)

[Jarulf]

I didn't expect you to.  I was asking in general what you were looking for - lvl 60 greens, lvl 70 blue, lvl 65 purple... what?

I think I have allready said so multiple times. Whatever items are suitable for the difficulty of the instance or instances if there are several. If the instance is of a difficulty comparable to what should drop "lvl 70 blue", have it drop lvl 70 blue of ocurse. If you want sich an instance to be for level 20 characters, drop whatever is suitable for level 20 characters, if you want it to be for level 60 characters with top end purple, have it drop similar items and so on.

See, there is a big jump in the amount of time you invest per instance as you move along.  WC, you do one time for 2 hours, probably.  Starting with BRD, if you want to continue to progress your character, you run dungeons multiple times.  And when you start raiding, you hit the same place maybe a hundred times.

Huh, so? Or rather, yeah, ok, fine. What does that have to do with the impossibillity of having single player instances? If it is needed, have the same apply to a single player instance. If it is for level 20 chars, have it be done once for 2 hours (or whatever is suitable) and if it is for well equped level 60 chars, have it take whatever ammount of hours needed and requiering it to be run whatever ammount of times neede and so on.

If I would to pick my personal choise, I would like to have one man instances at various levels, starting, say at 20 all the way up to 60 since that is were I play and were most people play. If it is hard to fit in for a particular type of character, do it for other levels. What's the problem to understand with that?

So now the raiders have to play solo?

Were have I ever stated so? By the way, I am in general against puting players into hard stereotypes such as "raider" and "non raider". Perhaps there are people that never do anything except raiding, then obviously they don't play single man instances, and these would not be for them. But then, I would say that there are not a single character. No matter how hard core, that has never, ever played outside a raid party (or at least in a 5 man group). The whole concept of "raider" don't even exists at levels before 60 anyway, or are you claiming that "raiders" get a free allready ready character at level 60 prepared to do raids? I have the feeling you are assuming that I would want only single man instances at the difficulty of end game raid content, which is a complete wrong assumtion. In addition, should we skip all PvP content as well since it gives items and such only possible to get through PvP and thus forcing us non PvP to go PvP? Of ocurse not.

If you don't want to play outside your raid group, fine, don't, this would not be for you at all then just as some decide to not ever set their for in a battleground (and thus being "locked out" from all that content).

27 was a bit of an exageration, it's supposed to be one for each tree of each class.  However, it would be atleast 9, and probably more.

No it doesn't, just as current instances are suitable for a VERY large veriety possible groups of characters and character classes. As I said, if you really want to tailor it for specific classes, have individual parts of it differ, for example, give monsters slightly different abilities depending on character class entering and so on.

  If you are really challenging the players, there will definatly be encounters that are very easy for shadow priests, and difficult for holy ones, and visa versa.

So? And for the next encounter in the instance after that, the situation will be reversed. DIfferent classes will have different parts differ in challenge, whats the problem with that? It is allready like that in many places of the game today. I can cruise through some quests were others have a hard time (at my level) while in other palces having a horribly hard time, only to see some other class cruise by with no sweat.

If you don't make all the wings, it will be easymode for some classes/specs if it is possible for less optimal ones.  And if it's easy mode, you can't pass out gear better then what you get in Strath/Scholo
[right][snapback]108423[/snapback][/right]

You make it seem like the whole instance must be exactly the same through out, that is, if it is "easy" for one class, the whole instance and every encounter and monster in it will be easy to that class. Have it ever occured to you that one can mix in different kind of encounters along the way that might suite different classes differently? Or that one can adjust based on class? Appearantly not. The game is allready very different in difficulty for different characters at different levels.

Another solution is of course to tailor the items to each class (which would be the obvious choise anyway since it would be stupid droping plate armor if a priest is doing the dungeon, unless you want the items ffor sale in which case it doesn't matter much anyway since they are available to anyone) and hence if you feel you can't make the instance challenging for, say a level 40 hunter while it is so for all other level 40 chars, have the hunter items be of different power so that they aresuitable for the level in which the hunter do the instance for a challenge. It is not hard really as long as you are a bit open minded on how to create things.

I am sure that if one spend slightly more time thinking about it, there are tons of other such things to do that doesn't require a horribly ammount of time and work, yet produces good end result for most (well, except raiders appearantly since they are of the opinion that a solo instance is impossible to do at any level in the game withough completely breaking the balance of the game.

[oldmandennis]

Now there is a really  silly argument, and you know it. No one is suggesting raiders have to solo, only that more solo-oriented players should have an alternative to raiding.
[right][snapback]108441[/snapback][/right]

The only thing that makes it silly is you know the raiders will do it. If there are new skills to be had, they have to, or they will be left behind.

As far as the hundred times thing, while you are learning an instance, you hit it 3-4 times a week. I've been to MC about 70 times, and am down to about 1 drop I'd really like and 2 that would be pretty nice. Obviously that number is much lower if you just come in when it's already on farm mode, but if you are learning new strats, its probably about right.

Ilvl 20 greens and the occasional blues in a level 20 instance, Ilvl60 greens and blues in a level 60 instance, above that in metalevel >60 instances. With difficulty for each comparable to instances designed for larger groups.

First one, sure why not. Second one is a bit tougher, you have to balance the difficulty against content that is pretty established. Third one is just about impossible.

Think it through - if its gonna compare in difficulty to a raid dungeon, it has to take a _good_ player >100hr to figure it out. Not get all the loot, just get through it one time. Alot of casuals will be extreamly frusterated by this. And if you are talking about that level of difficulty/time, you can't just have one section with 4-5 different passages. The whole thing has to be difficult for everybody. You need to have most of the mobs see through stealth, otherwise the thing is trivial for rogues, but if they can't stealth past mobs that hit hard enough to challenge a warrior, rogues will be pulverized. And what's a holy priest to do?

[Jarulf]

Think it through - if its gonna compare in difficulty to a raid dungeon, it has to take a _good_ player >100hr to figure it out.  Not get all the loot, just get through it one time.  Alot of casuals will be extreamly frusterated by this.  And if you are talking about that level of difficulty/time, you can't just have one section with 4-5 different passages.  The whole thing has to be difficult for everybody.  You need to have most of the mobs see through stealth, otherwise the thing is trivial for rogues, but if they can't stealth past mobs that hit hard enough to challenge a warrior, rogues will be pulverized.  And what's a holy priest to do?
[right][snapback]108460[/snapback][/right]

Apart from the, in my opinion, silly statement that time determine how good items should be, the obvious solution is, then put in items that correspond to the time it takes getting through, gee, how hard can it be. Typically most people think items are based on how difficulty the encounter is. If that doesn't work and if the situation is different (as you say), then base it on time if that is how the game determine how "good" items should be.

You are really just marking words and thinking that if we say "difficulty", it means how hard a boss is to kill. Look at it a bit boreader then, if it is time that is the determining factor, then read "difficulty" as the time it takes to go through or whatever else you feel is the appropriate meassurement and adjust the loot based on that.

Once again, give loot based on difficulty/ time to beat/day of month/phase of the moon/whatever you fell is approproate, for the instance in question and don't constantly assume that everything new in the game has to be on the level of the final raid content. Even assuming your position that it is impossible to have 1 man instances (but apeparantly possible for 5 man, despite not being raid and taking that long) at the level of when people do raids, fine, add them earlier in the game then and at least we can get rid of people claiming "he it is impossible since it can't take as long as our raid dungeons and there is not a single type of item that can be put in it that will not completely the destroy balance of the game", because that is basically what you are saying.

[Brother Laz]

The main difference between D2 and WoW, and the reason why I never picked up WoW, is:

D2: <looking for Windforce bow>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... Grandfather sword... killkillkill... high rune... kill... Harlequin Crest... killkillkill... okay, I give up. Hey look, I can now give that sword to my barb and sell the high rune for a Bramble!

WoW: <looking for Legplates of Wrath>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... soulbound druid shoulders... killkillkill... soulbound mage robe... kill... unusable enchanting recipe... killkillkill... okay, I give up. I bloody got nothing!!

The bad problem with preset drops is that there is usually only one thing you need, and if you don't get it, you get nothing at all.

If there is a quest item that has a 2% drop rate, and you get unlucky, and you end up having to kill 382 low level monsters before it drops, you've had no challenge, no fun, and you got no useful items at all.

In Diablo 2, not only are you fighting the highest level monsters (instead of monsters that cannot even hit you), but even if you don't get lucky and your target item doesn't drop, you get lots of other stuff along the way, if only just experience. You won't ever just 'waste' your time.

[Zarathustra]

The main difference between D2 and WoW, and the reason why I never picked up WoW, is:

D2: <looking for Windforce bow>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... Grandfather sword... killkillkill... high rune... kill... Harlequin Crest... killkillkill... okay, I give up. Hey look, I can now give that sword to my barb and sell the high rune for a Bramble!

WoW: <looking for Legplates of Wrath>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... soulbound druid shoulders... killkillkill... soulbound mage robe... kill... unusable enchanting recipe... killkillkill... okay, I give up. I bloody got nothing!!

The bad problem with preset drops is that there is usually only one thing you need, and if you don't get it, you get nothing at all.

To play devil's advocate, if WoW worked on the D2 loot system you still wouldn't get anything at all. Chances are someone would need that Grandfather or Crest.

The two systems are more indicative of the focus of singleplayer vs. multiplayer, imho.

[Arnulf]

The main difference between D2 and WoW, and the reason why I never picked up WoW, is:

D2: <looking for Windforce bow>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... Grandfather sword... killkillkill... high rune... kill... Harlequin Crest... killkillkill... okay, I give up. Hey look, I can now give that sword to my barb and sell the high rune for a Bramble!

WoW: <looking for Legplates of Wrath>
... killkillkill... hmm... killkill... soulbound druid shoulders... killkillkill... soulbound mage robe... kill... unusable enchanting recipe... killkillkill... okay, I give up. I bloody got nothing!!

The bad problem with preset drops is that there is usually only one thing you need, and if you don't get it, you get nothing at all.

If there is a quest item that has a 2% drop rate, and you get unlucky, and you end up having to kill 382 low level monsters before it drops, you've had no challenge, no fun, and you got no useful items at all.

In Diablo 2, not only are you fighting the highest level monsters (instead of monsters that cannot even hit you), but even if you don't get lucky and your target item doesn't drop, you get lots of other stuff along the way, if only just experience. You won't ever just 'waste' your time.

Exactly the opposite stance I take on the two different loot systems. I hate the random drop system of D2. I've played D2 for years. Yet I never even saw a Stone of Jordan for example. I was only short of Milabrega's breast piece. I knew where the drop chance would be high, I maxed MF on various characters. I never got it.

[Monkey]

Or, in more direct terms, we wish to reignite the sense of "fight or flight" for people all over Azeroth. In one way or another, this war will touch on players lives more directly, now that the lair of Kel'Thuzad hovers over the lands and the lich's influence is tangibly focused. Many shall be driven by mobs of the undead, others shall challenge their footholds. Mercy will be in short supply.

I've brutally snipped this from the context of Mongo's original post to point out: I felt no sense of "fight or flight" to the scourge invasion event. While I did have fun fighting the scourge at the far corners of Azeroth, the assault on each city seemed practically polite by comparsion. You know, a sort of, "Please excuse us, but we'd like to invade now--Is it a bad time? Oh very well, then, we'll just wait outside. Cheerio!"

They were just kind of rare-spawn-y mobs attached to questlines. Questlines, I might add, that had to be turned in before the invasion ended. I've got 135 Necrotic Runes in my inventory, and a completed "Shadows of Doom" questline in my log, but the Argent Dawn doesn't care. Apparently their efforts to drive evil from Azeroth are seasonal.