Something to bash on

[Crusader]

Ok Doc, let 'r Rip! Now's yer chance and I won't stop you one bit!

I'm not sure everyone heard by now, But I am astounded what my little country (the Netherlands) has barfed up now.... I'll take a press copy.

Pedophiles launch political party

From correspondents in Amsterdam

May 31, 2006

DUTCH pedophiles are launching a political party to push for a cut in the legal age for sexual relations from 16 to 12 and the legalisation of child pornography and sex with animals, sparking widespread outrage.

The Charity, Freedom and Diversity (NVD) party said on its web site it would be officially registered tomorrow, proclaiming: "We are going to shake The Hague awake!"

The party said it wanted to cut the legal age for sexual relations to 12 and eventually scrap the limit altogether.

"A ban just makes children curious," Ad van den Berg, one of the party's founders, told the Algemeen Dagblad (AD) newspaper.

"We want to make pedophilia the subject of discussion," he said, adding the subject had been a taboo since the 1996 Marc Dutroux child abuse scandal in neighbouring Belgium.

"We want to get into parliament so we have a voice. Other politicians only talk about us in a negative sense, as if we were criminals," Van den Berg said.

The Netherlands, which already has liberal policies on soft drugs, prostitution and gay marriage, was shocked by the plan.

An opinion poll published showed that 82 per cent wanted the Government to do something to stop the party, while 67 per cent said promoting pedophilia should be illegal.

"They make out as if they want more rights for children. But their position that children should be allowed sexual contact from age 12 is of course just in their own interest," anti-pedophile campaigner Ireen van Engelen told the AD daily.

Right-wing lawmaker Geert Wilders said he had asked the Government to investigate whether a party with such "sick ideas" could really be established, ANP news agency reported.

Kees van deer Staaij, a member of the Christian SGP party, also demanded action: "Pedophilia and child pornography should be taboo in every constitutional state. Breaking that will just create more victims and more serious ones."

The party wants private possession of child pornography to be allowed although it supports the ban on the trade of such materials. It also supports allowing pornography to be broadcast on daytime television, with only violent pornography limited to the late evening.

Toddlers should be given sex education and youths aged 16 and up should be allowed to appear in pornographic films and prostitute themselves. Sex with animals should be allowed although abuse of animals should remain illegal, the NVD said.

The party also said everybody should be allowed to go naked in public and promotes legalising all soft and hard drugs and free train travel for all.

also, they want to make sex with animals legal, the eating of meat and fish forbidden, and whatnot...


God bless Democracy!

(my lovely little country is in an uproar about this of course).


edit: Here's a link with a picture to one of the fellows running the party, definately the kind of guy I want to see near any children!
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/013612.html
http://www.itv.com/news/index_2055057.html


Now let's hope people won't lynch them before they publish the names of everyone who would be associated with such a party.

[[wcip]Angel]

:blink:Oh my God! I'm so #¤%&ing offended, I can hardly muster the will to type! And I'm a liberal!!

I can't see how this could be anything but a sick, twisted joke.

What's next? Legalising rape? Oh wait ... pedophaelia *is* rape!:angry:

[DeeBye]

edit: Here's a link with a picture to one of the fellows running the party, definately the kind of guy I want to see near any children!
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/013612.html

Oh god the teeth!

Funnily enough, the Canadian government is proposing legislation to RAISE the age of consent in Canada from 14 to 16.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[ShadowHM]

I'm not sure everyone heard by now, But I am astounded what my little country (the Netherlands) has barfed up now.... I'll take a press copy.

It is downright amazing how much some folks crave that 15 minutes of fame, isn't it? And how it matters not whether it is for good reasons or bad reasons - being the centre of the news is such an attractive thing. :rolleyes:

The media frenzy strikes me as precisely the outcome the man was seeking. ;) And we all get to feel nice and righteous affirming that we don't like him or his ideas. :whistling:

[Crusader]

It is downright amazing how much some folks crave that 15 minutes of fame, isn't it? And how it matters not whether it is for good reasons or bad reasons - being the centre of the news is such an attractive thing. :rolleyes:

The media frenzy strikes me as precisely the outcome the man was seeking. ;) And we all get to feel nice and righteous affirming that we don't like him or his ideas. :whistling:

Sadly he, and his bunch, are serious, they want to set up a political party. And they did, actually. Now they've got the country in an uproar since monday. Sure, fat chance they'll get elected to even one of the 150 seats, but the general public wants to see blood. Perhaps they had hoped to "spark a debate" but all they sparked is a lot of hate.

I'll keep you all posted as the events continue, of course, but I personally expect a wave of anti-pedo hate crimes.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm not sure everyone heard by now, But I am astounded what my little country (the Netherlands) has barfed up now.... I'll take a press copy.

(my lovely little country is in an uproar about this of course).

Now let's hope people won't lynch them before they publish the names of everyone who would be associated with such a party.

What message are these activists sending? "My libido is more important than your, or any, child's healthy development." That strikes me as very selfish, very much "It's all about me!"

Every so often I get the feeling that

1. The Fundamentalist Christians have a point about secular society's lack of a moral compass<>
   
2. The Fundamentalist Muslims have a point about the Modern World/West to being decadent beyond repair<>
   
3. The exporting (and obvious encouragement) of underage sex tourism into Southeast Asia for the past decades will come home to roost. Apparently it now has, and it is "our children rather than their children . . . " so the Netherlands just woke up. :angry:<>
   [st]
   Didn't the Germans pass a law a few years ago, to the effect that sex tourism in other countries (with minors) by German citizens was punishable in Germany? Details rusty. German Lurkers, can you help?
   
   I have no problem with the age of consent being 15 or 16. That does not imply that 15/16 year olds should be 'open season,' with adults as hunters, but it puts a premium on smart decision making and "teach your children well." You can't bubble wrap kids forever. Raising the age of consent has achieved an increase in statutory rape cases being prosecuted, and more people in prison. To what beneficial end? I am not sure. I don't think it has done much to stop people having irresponsible sex. The raised age has not curbed teen pregnancy as a social blight. My view on that may be skewed by South Texas being a national leader in teen pregnancy. (Makes ya proud, doesn't it? :P )
   
   No law can change the bad decisions young men and young women make, but the social issue at hand is predatory exploitation. OK, how do minors get cut loose to become prey to exploiters?
   
   When it comes to adults having sex with minors, I lean toward the idea that a healthy society nurtures its children rather than exploiting them, and that a family has the primary responsibility for that nurturing. (Mr Spears, Mr Olsen, take note!)
   
   On the related matter, pornography involving minors is a bad idea. Some things are suitable for leaving until the age of majority: voting, military service, and participation in porn productions among them. (There is a common theme of "a royal screwing" in there that I will leave for another time. :P )
   
   There is a time and place for everything. Time? Age of majority. Place? Per the song: "The Internet is for porn . . .":lol:
   
   Occhi

[Crusader]

What message are these activists sending? "My libido is more important than your, or any, child's healthy development." That strikes me as very selfish, very much "It's all about me!"

"They make out as if they want more rights for children. But their position that children should be allowed sexual contact from age 12 is of course just in their own interest," said anti-pedophile campaigner Ireen van Engelen.

That was said in another news article. We're not stupid over here of course. We see what these sick old farts are up to.

Didn't the Germans pass a law a few years ago, to the effect that sex tourism in other countries (with minors) by German citizens was punishable in Germany? Details rusty. German Lurkers, can you help?

I believe we have similar laws in the Netherlands.



The Netherlands are known for their tolerance. Our liberal softdrug/prostitution policies are known far and wide. But this is far out, there's no way we'll ever tolerate this. I wouldn't be surprised if there's blood in the streets soon. Not that having a few pedos stabbed down would really bother me, but they've gone at this from the totally wrong angle and only bad things can come from this. They played right in the hand of the right-wing conservative christian parties (who also still consider females the lesser species, idiots that they are), the skinheads and everything conservative and with a shred of religion attached to them. We'll see how things proceed from here, it might all cool down and be totally stomped out the coming days, or it may spark more unrest.

Reporting from the Netherlands, this is the Crusader. Back to you Lurkers.

[eppie]

Reporting from the Netherlands, this is the Crusader. Back to you Lurkers.

Crusader, the 'telegraaf-gehalte' of your post is very high, and it is also a good way to let people think that dutch people are crazy.

Let's not forget that child abuse is happening everywhere, and apparantly the fact that it is illegal does not seem to help (very strange):angry:

I'd rather have this group of people wanting to start a political party and exposing themselves (no pun intended), then that they go out and secretely rape children.

I mean (also to occhi), we all know that among religious people the percentage of pedophiles (or gays) is equal and for sure not smaller than let's say among dutch people in general. As a church you can say thousands of times that pedophiles and gays should burn in hell.....but at the same time the public sees pedophilyscandal after scandal involving priests.....followed by a nice hustle up by the vatican...

If in Holland we hear about incest for example, 9 of the 10 times it happens in a very closed and very religious family. So you can go on and trust everybody that tells to everybody that wants to listen how much he hates pedophiles.....but if it will help....I don't think so.

You see what I mean....just (like shadow pointed out correctly) showing how much we hate what pedophiles do will not solve the problem. This new political party (which will of course like you said never get a seat in the parliament) will not increase the amount of pedophiles. Just like our legalization of soft drugs will not create drug addicts.


We must make sure that we will never let things happen to our childern against their will, a recognized 'party' of pedophiles might just even help us to make sure we can bring child-abuse numbers down. (but that is just speculation of course)

[Crusader]

Crusader, the 'telegraaf-gehalte' of your post is very high, and it is also a good way to let people think that dutch people are crazy.

Let's not forget that child abuse is happening everywhere, and apparantly the fact that it is illegal does not seem to help (very strange):angry:

I'd rather have this group of people wanting to start a political party and exposing themselves (no pun intended), then that they go out and secretely rape children.

I mean (also to occhi), we all know that among religious people the percentage of pedophiles (or gays) is equal and for sure not smaller than let's say among dutch people in general. As a church you can say thousands of times that pedophiles and gays should burn in hell.....but at the same time the public sees pedophilyscandal after scandal involving priests.....followed by a nice hustle up by the vatican...

If in Holland we hear about incest for example, 9 of the 10 times it happens in a very closed and very religious family. So you can go on and trust everybody that tells to everybody that wants to listen how much he hates pedophiles.....but if it will help....I don't think so.

You see what I mean....just (like shadow pointed out correctly) showing how much we hate what pedophiles do will not solve the problem. This new political party (which will of course like you said never get a seat in the parliament) will not increase the amount of pedophiles. Just like our legalization of soft drugs will not create drug addicts.
We must make sure that we will never let things happen to our childern against their will, a recognized 'party' of pedophiles might just even help us to make sure we can bring child-abuse numbers down. (but that is just speculation of course)

Never seen anchors or corrospondents talking on american channels? the "Back to you" thing was a little joke. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, although in concept I agree to your ideas, I think you're being a tad too tolerant here. Whereas homosexuals and such are concenting adults, children have to be protected from pedophiles, unless you believe sexual contact at age 12 with an adult under any circomstance can be considered a good idea (which I'm sure you don't of course). I'm all for exposing these people, as you said, but in the end it can only be used to keep tabs on them.

Your comparisons are a little poor however, and the 9/10 thing is grabbed out of thin air. I don't know what to do about pedos, really, I have no idea. They can't be locked up without reasons (one can be a pedo and refrain from having sex, for instance, which I would accept as tolerable) and they can't be 'cured' in any way, because there's nothing to cure. they see as having sex with children just as normal as we are hetero- bi- or homosexuals and are no more 'diseased' then any of the groups mentioned before. It's just that they have a very creepy obsession. Will giving that group a voice help at this time? No, I think not, it will only spark hate instead of tolerance for these people. Will they reach their goals? absolutely not. We'll protect our children from pedos with unrelenting vigor. Pedos should not be allowed to have sexual, if any, contact with children, and although this may be cruel to pedophiles, children are simply too vulnurable to negative influences to let them be influenced by them.

There just isn't a simple, humane solution out of this mess, but in the end, we'll always chose for our children over the needs of pedophiles out of sheer human nature to protect our children.

[Doc]

I've seen that.

I can't really make much of a comment, because all of them involve killing and there aint much point in drawing out the details.:angry:

[Occhidiangela]

I mean (also to occhi), we all know that among religious people the percentage of pedophiles (or gays) is equal and for sure not smaller than let's say among dutch people in general. As a church you can say thousands of times that pedophiles and gays should burn in hell.....but at the same time the public sees pedophilyscandal after scandal involving priests.....followed by a nice hustle up by the vatican...

You don't know that, you assert it without a shred of evidence. You know that some priests (how about you give me a number?) have indeed done so. Now, back up your assertion with statistics drawn from known pehophiles elsewhere, and we can have a conversation on the topic. What is disturbing is the "tip of the iceberg" problem. How many pedophiles out there, that we don't know about, are exploiting children for their kicks?

"The religious people" are not all priests, indeed, priests make up a miniscule percentage of Christians. As for another of your canards, a pedophile priest will burn in hell alongside a pedophile from the laity, according to doctrine.

Thanks for playing, but I think that delicious vino locale might be clouding your thinking. It did the same to me for three years! :lol: Brain cells well burned.

Occhi

[Armin]

Didn't the Germans pass a law a few years ago, to the effect that sex tourism in other countries (with minors) by German citizens was punishable in Germany? Details rusty. German Lurkers, can you help?

Yep:

§ 5 subsection 8b StGB states that for prosecution of child abuse it is sufficient for the offender to be German, regardless of the victim's nationality or the site of crime.

Enforcing that law is another matter, however. The German "Kinderschutzbund" (large NGO for the protection of childrens rights, a collague from my party is the head of their local branch) hasn't listed more than a handful of successful cases. Collaboration between german police and local authorities in (mostly 3rd world) foreign countries is only beginning at best.

[Chaerophon]

Apparently there are now 60 countries in which sex tourism has been made illegal. I read one site that said it was illegal in the U.S., too. Linky to first Canadian prosecution under the law:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[Archon_Wing]

:angry::angry::angry:

Sigh.... standard. The sickos are just coming out of the woodwork. I recomend an exterminator, or a rusty fork.

This a good example why staying informed is a really good thing, because people will indeed pull this trash off. :angry::angry::angry:

[kandrathe]

If you poke the same nerve enough it gets numb. If you poke at the dike long enough you will break it. Persistence in a democracy is sometimes as effective as persuasion. Look at what is acceptable in high schools or at changes in movies from the 50, and 60's. Even some of what is considered PG13 in 2006 would have been banned in the 50's.

I've seen it work for both sides here in the US. For the liberals, the ACLU has doggedly pursued particular agenda's and eventually build up enough case law for precedents. Some of it is bizarre, like trying to get the Ten Commandments removed from courthouse monuments, some of which have been in place for many decades. On the conservative side the Right to Life people have doggedly been involved in their crusade long enough to start reversing laws and legal precedence and is getting enough of their advocates in all 3 branches of government.

Here also, the NAMBLA folks are crafting themselves after the Gay rights, and Civil rights movements. They label any laws they disagree with as discriminitory and institutionalized bigotry, and in general attack the Judeo-Christian moral basis of western society and juris prudence. This gets back to our earlier discussions on the "Rape of the Ape". As a libertarian, I'm certainly no puritan. But, I believe in the need for a moral basis for societal law crafted around the norm of society rather than the least common denominator.

Let's hope some sanity prevails and Amsterdam doesn't become known as the place to go to legally smoke hash, and have all forms of taboo sex. What the liberals in the NL should fear is back lash by the conservatives which forces you to take sides with the twisted sick.

[[wcip]Angel]

What the liberals in the NL should fear is back lash by the conservatives which forces you to take sides with the twisted sick.

I see you point, but do you really see this as a viable threat? That people will side with paedophiles in opposition to the extreme right movement?

In the spirit of having to choose between two evils, I'd rather side with a genodical maglomaniac like Adolph Hitler than rally behind child molesters, and I'm more inclined to believe that Dutch liberals will lean more to the right to distance themselves as much as (in)humanly possible from these psychopaths rather than support them.

But hey, I could be wrong.

edit: typo

[Occhidiangela]

Angel' date='Jun 2 2006, 07:19 AM' post='111104']
I see you point, but do you really see this as a viable threat? That people will side with paedophiles in opposition to the extreme right movement?

In the spirit of having to choose between two evils, I'd rather side with a genodical maglomaniac like Adolph Hitler than rally behind child molesters, and I'm more inclined to believe that Dutch liberals with lean more to the right to distance themselves as much as (in)humanly possible from these psychopaths rather than support them.

But hey, I could be wrong.

Angel:

I wouldn't think that any Dutch liberal or Moderate would want to deal with "guilt by association" with child molesters, unless they

1. were never a parent<>
   
2. didn't care<>
   
3. view children with disdain<>
   
4. think sex with anything that moves is an inalienable right<>
   [st]I have known some American liberals that fit all of the above, but I never got the impression they found exploiting children to be valid, for all their "eewwww, children, we prefer Golden Labs" attitudes. (I grimace as I recall some of the DINKs I have met.)
   
   Occhi

[ShadowHM]

(I grimace as I recall some of the DINKs I have met.)

Occhi

Ah, but somebody has to help pay the school board taxes for those of us who procreate too much. :P

We just have to avoid visiting their homes, where the accumulation of precious objects placed on precarious locations makes for a hectic time keeping an eye on the offspring instead of indulging in visiting. :o

[Occhidiangela]

Ah, but somebody has to help pay the school board taxes for those of us who procreate too much. :P

Smart people can't procreate "too much." :P

Occhi

[Quark]

Some of it is bizarre, like trying to get the Ten Commandments removed from courthouse monuments, some of which have been in place for many decades.

How dare anyone take Seperation of Church and State seriously!