Naxxramas

[Arnulf]

Many single-player RPG's have content designed for one character, who will have varying skills and equipment when running the dungeon. So providing the same in WOW doesn't seem an insuperable challenge to me. If playtesters find that class X has particular trouble with a key spot, provide a way around it with a different but comparable challenge.
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I'm convinced there is no reason to add single player dungeons. WOW is a multiplayer game after all. I have Diablo 2 on my machine installed. I don't need such an equivalent in WOW. Yes, new content should be added. But it is better in my opinion to add more 5-player instances than this. As was shown time and again, designing new content takes months, if not years. A 5-player instance brings much more to the player base than a one-player dungeon.

Compared to some other popular multiplayer CRPGs WOW is incredibly easy in leveling your characters if your prefered playing style is solo play. Other games in that category requires you to group up. And sometimes even then it's a tough grind! The current system, that you can level faster in a group, or that the rewards are way better in a group is very well done. You still have the option to go single. But it's not encouraged.

I hope there will be more small-group content in the future. Right now I'm looking forward to complete my Dungeon-2 set. I'm not tired of the 5-player instances at all. There's still stuff to discover in Stratholme, Scholomance, Blackrock Depths. I like the design. I love the challenge. We can still wipe in the first room of Scholomance. :D And it is still fun.

Doing a baron run with only four people and a paladin as main healer. Going for Dagran Thaurissan with a shadow priest, two warriors (one def-, one off-specced), and a paladin. There are still ways to play this game which are fun and challenging.

[LochnarITB]

I'm convinced there is no reason to add single player dungeons. WOW is a multiplayer game after all. I have Diablo 2 on my machine installed. I don't need such an equivalent in WOW.
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You don't need such an equivalent, but some people do, or at least strongly desire it. Diablo 2 is not WoW and does not belong in the discussion. People want to play WoW. WoW is aimed at all style of players - raiders, small group and solo. Leveling solo is easy, but it tends to be kill x foozles, gather y gizmos or deliver z to joe npc. Solo instances would give a couple benefits. Solo players could work on progression just as groups do - kill trash, strategize for the next boss... - and, given locks and resets like the 20s and 40s, players could maintain progression over multiple sessions. This would be great for people with limited play time per day. Such instances could be designed with different bosses/sections tough for different classes. Would I love such solo instances? Yes! Do I expect to ever see it? No. I don't believe that Blizzard will ever see solo content as more than a grind offered to be able to market the game as solo friendly.

[Arnulf]

You don't need such an equivalent, but some people do, or at least strongly desire it.  Diablo 2 is not WoW and does not belong in the discussion.  People want to play WoW.  WoW is aimed at all style of players - raiders, small group and solo.  Leveling solo is easy, but it tends to be kill x foozles, gather y gizmos or deliver z to joe npc.  Solo instances would give a couple benefits.  Solo players could work on progression just as groups do - kill trash, strategize for the next boss... - and, given locks and resets like the 20s and 40s, players could maintain progression over multiple sessions.  This would be great for people with limited play time per day.  Such instances could be designed with different bosses/sections tough for different classes.  Would I love such solo instances?  Yes!  Do I expect to ever see it?  No.  I don't believe that Blizzard will ever see solo content as more than a grind offered to be able to market the game as solo friendly.
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There is a difference between limited time supply for playing and solo play. Instances are games in a game. Single player instances would be single player games only accessible by entering (and paying for) a multiplayer game. I do not see the merit in this.

However, I would love to see a feature where a 5-player group could, say, somehow save the current instance to continue on the next day. Blizzard is trying. Look at how Scarlet Monastery is structured. These are in effect four separate instances. A group does not need to do the whole instance at once. Same goes for Maraudon. You can do the purple part, on another day the orange part, or vice versa.

[LochnarITB]

There is a difference between limited time supply for playing and solo play. Instances are games in a game. Single player instances would be single player games only accessible by entering (and paying for) a multiplayer game. I do not see the merit in this.

However, I would love to see a feature where a 5-player group could, say, somehow save the current instance to continue on the next day.
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Of course there is a difference. I didn't say there wasn't. However, limited play time does push one towards solo play. It is extremely rude to accept a party invite then play for 45 minutes and say "oops time's up gotta go". As far as a single player game within a multiplayer game, are you saying you have never played your character(s) outside of a party? You would be a rare player indeed. Unless that is true, why would there be no merit in a solo player having an instance they can save their progress in but there is merit in doing it with a 5 man party? :blink: Sometimes, one feels like playing solo, sometimes a party and sometimes a full on raid. Players want to be able to choose depending on the mood of the day/week/month and the more different styles the game can allow, the more people Blizzard can draw in to our shared addiction.

[Warlock]

Some significant quests are already designed to be done alone (eg. Hunter & Priest epic quests).

I believe WoW has roughly ten times the subscriber base of it's nearest competitor. If true they could spend twice EQ2's entire update budget on each of raids, small group, pvp and solo content and still have proportional money left ofter. Imagine if *everyone* got the 'constant stream of new adventures' claimed on the box?

[oldmandennis]

$$ != quality content

There are only a certain number of people in the world who can do this stuff. You can't just take a bucket of cash and start hiring shmoes, and expect an even, well polished product. And to those of you who say its not polished now, well it would be even worse.

[Warlock]

$$ != quality content

There are only a certain number of people in the world who can do this stuff.  You can't just take a bucket of cash and start hiring shmoes, and expect an even, well polished product.  And to those of you who say its not polished now, well it would be even worse.
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Yeah, there would be lead time and a lot of issues to solve. But the people are out there. Every MMO has people doing this stuff, so does every single player RPG developer, etc. It's not really relevant to the main point of the thread so I'll leave it there. Now that Cthun is down a playstyle has exhausted it's content so more is needed urgently. Yay for Naxx!

[Icebird]

Still only halfway through the thread. Lots of interesting discussion on a whole bunch of issues, most of them completely unrelated to Naxxramas. :)

A couple of random thoughts:

Alterac Valley rep: In the old days on Malygos, AV matches lasted forever, and the Alliance would usually win when the Horde all logged off at 3 in the morning (there's a big population imbalance on our server so Alliance always gets replacements but Horde don't as the time gets late).

Then at some point, someone realised the best rep and honor actually came from winning matches and the "AV race" was born.

Essentially both teams charge straight for your opponents base. PvP becomes optional. Both factions can actually end up going straight past each other and simply fighting NPCs all game. One side or other would usually win in about 30 minutes.

Scheduling and burnout: Our guild is facing this issue. How to fit everything in without burning people out. We currently run BWL, MC, ZG, AQ20 and Onyxia. Enough people want to do each of those instances that we can't really skip any (like The Core does). It looks like we'll be heading to a schedule of 5 days per week raiding in May: 2 days of BWL, 1 day of MC, Onyxia on the same day as one of the BWL runs, and two nights for the 20 man instances. After a lot of internal discussion it seems to be the best we can come up with to strike a balance; beyond that it becomes a personal responsibility to take the breaks you need to prevent burnout.

I can't see us devoting much time to AQ40 or Naxxramas until we have BWL closer to "farmable". We're only up to Firemaw and progress has been pretty slow so far.

Chris

[Xanthix]

Yeah, there would be lead time and a lot of issues to solve. But the people are out there. Every MMO has people doing this stuff, so does every single player RPG developer, etc. It's not really relevant to the main point of the thread so I'll leave it there. Now that Cthun is down a playstyle has exhausted it's content so more is needed urgently. Yay for Naxx!
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Don't forget that even with unlimited money and manpower, software objectives take time to complete. The short version of this is that nine women cannot make a baby in one month. :) The long version is the book "The Mythical Man Month" which explains that for some projects, as you add people and resources, you actually push back the completion date.

But I agree. Yay Naxx!

[oldmandennis]

Don't forget that even with unlimited money and manpower, software objectives take time to complete.
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Yup. Money + brilliant people != excellent software. See Microsoft.

[Jarulf]

Well... are you hoping to progress your gear in this theoretical dungeon?  If you are, what sort of level and quality do you think you will see?  If not, do you really think alot of people are going to spend alot of time on it?  Especially the classes/specs for which it is difficult?

I have not designed them in my mind completely and thus can't give you complete rewards, quests, whatever you could possibly get there. It was an idea of something new and different. Obviously they should have items comparable to their difficulty, just as with every other instance and encounter in the game. How long time people spend there? Or should spend there? Same, just like any other instance and dungeon. How much time do you spend in Deadmines or Wailing Caverns? Or any other instance picked at random?

Also note that items is not the only reward, there are many other possibilities, EVEN factoring in Blzizards narrow mind in what can and can not be done. You can have some class ability in there given through collecting quest items (if they really want you to grind like every other place in the game, have people run it myltiple times to get all). Have it give reputation to some faction that give nice rewards in recipies or items and so on. Have it give good drops that are not of equipable type but sought after by people and so on. Don't limit yourself so much into thinking it must be rewarding for someone decked out in the best items, it can even be for people below level 60, it is an idea and it can be used in whatever way any other feature and instance in the game.

Durator is a silly argument and you know it.  There are no blues to be had there, and not even alot of greens.

Huh? Have I claimed so? Bolty argued that his char is SOO good since he got the latest and best items that he could stand and have a level 60 warrior wack at him forever while he beat the warrior to death with his stick. It was used in an argument about how one man instances are impossible to balance and I just said I can do the same (although I picked a monster counterpart instead of a player but I could equally well have picked a player in the same area) and appearantly that has NOT made anyone argue that we should skip parts of the games since it would be "impossible to balance". Were you got the idea of blues and greens I have no idea.

The rest of the game is _roughly_ balanced where the rewards are somewhat proportional to the time, difficulty, and level of organization needed to obtain them.

What "rest"???? And what does that have to do with my idea that single man instances should be fun?

Unless your dungeon has 27 wings, you are going to have a real hard time coming close to that sort of balance, unless you drop lvl 60 greens.
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?????? I don't get your argumentation. First of all, I have not made a SINGLE sugestion for either difficulty or drops or content or anything of my idea. I just thought it would be fun with single man instances. Why on earth would you need to drop "lvl 60 greens" for it to be possible to make a single man instance? Beats me. Does a 5 man instance have a requirement of items of a specific level and colour to drop for it to be possible to implement? Appearantly not since I have been (even with my limited instance experience) in 5 man instances that has droped everything from purple items to at most some green level items (don't thing it has almost any blues possible at all). So apearantly it is possible and for your information, none of those instances had "27" wings.

[Arnulf]

Of course there is a difference.  I didn't say there wasn't.  However, limited play time does push one towards solo play.  It is extremely rude to accept a party invite then play for 45 minutes and say "oops time's up gotta go".  As far as a single player game within a multiplayer game, are you saying you have never played your character(s) outside of a party?  You would be a rare player indeed.  Unless that is true, why would there be no merit in a solo player having an instance they can save their progress in but there is merit in doing it with a 5 man party? :blink: Sometimes, one feels like playing solo, sometimes a party and sometimes a full on raid.  Players want to be able to choose depending on the mood of the day/week/month and the more different styles the game can allow, the more people Blizzard can draw in to our shared addiction.
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I know what you mean. While I am fortunate that I have much time to play, I'm fully aware of the issue with limited time that leads one to miss out on great instance runs. Even if these instances are the "small" ones.

I'm playing one character almost exclusively. I guess I was leveling him 90% single. Now that he is level 60 for, like, an eternity, I'm still playing fairly often single. Mostly gathering materials for twinks, or farming reagents, or grinding for reputation.

However, when I'm playing single, I'm still in a world where I can interact with other players. Be it that Horde get the drop on me and kill me. Or that guild mates are looking for a paladin. Helping that stranger to complete a quest... there are always possibilities only a MMO game can offer.

[Kevin]

Yup.  Money + brilliant people != excellent software.  See Microsoft.
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I so have to quote this for truth.

I even know people that work for Microsoft and they are amazingly brilliant and amazingly good programmers too. Microsoft is not shy with the money for many of their people either, they throw a lot of money at training and education, and it's very good training and education as well. They do a lot of things amazingly well from the business side of things (they also do some very underhanded things too but eh).

But the results of their products are highly visible. They make a product that is "solid enough" and that isn't by intention, that is by the nature of the beast. Perfection in software can not be achieved simply from money and great programmers. If it could there would be better than what we have out there already.

[Monkey]

Now that Cthun is down a playstyle has exhausted it's content so more is needed urgently. Yay for Naxx!
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Wait, what?

Am I misreading your post? Because you seem to be saying, "As soon as the final boss drops in the newest instance for the first time, new content is needed for that playstyle,"

If so, that's an impossible pace...and my 5-man is months behind!

[Warlock]

Wait, what?

Am I misreading your post? Because you seem to be saying, "As soon as the final boss drops in the newest instance for the first time, new content is needed for that playstyle,"

If so, that's an impossible pace...and my 5-man is months behind!
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Well, new content for anyone is a good thing - but it does seem to be Blizzard's attitude to raid content. I remember a CM saying almost as much when asked why Naxx was coming out in 1.11 despite no-one having finished AQ (though I can't find the post on bluetracker).

And yes, new content for small groups is desperately needed. Making some of the pre-launch promises true would need an extra twenty levels of non-raid itemisation - something I don't see happening in a single dungeon. After Naxx the gap will be even bigger.

[MongoJerry]

And yes, new content for small groups is desperately needed. Making some of the pre-launch promises true would need an extra twenty levels of non-raid itemisation - something I don't see happening in a single dungeon. After Naxx the gap will be even bigger.
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What promises specifically are you talking about? I don't remember anyone suggesting that someone could get the same level of items through solo/small group play that one could get in the 40-man dungeons.

[oldmandennis]

I have not designed them in my mind completely and thus can't give you complete rewards, quests, whatever you could possibly get there.

I didn't expect you to. I was asking in general what you were looking for - lvl 60 greens, lvl 70 blue, lvl 65 purple... what?

How long time people spend there? Or should spend there? Same, just like any other instance and dungeon. How much time do you spend in Deadmines or Wailing Caverns?

See, there is a big jump in the amount of time you invest per instance as you move along. WC, you do one time for 2 hours, probably. Starting with BRD, if you want to continue to progress your character, you run dungeons multiple times. And when you start raiding, you hit the same place maybe a hundred times.

You can have some class ability in there given through collecting quest items.

So now the raiders have to play solo? And yet it is unreasonable to expect people who want to solo to raid?

Does a 5 man instance have a requirement of items of a specific level and colour to drop for it to be possible to implement? Appearantly not since I have been (even with my limited instance experience) in 5 man instances that has droped everything from purple items to at most some green level items (don't thing it has almost any blues possible at all).

Yes, that is exactly it. Blizzard tries (not always completly sucessfully) to balance the drops from an instance against the difficulty and duration of it. This is the crux of the matter. If you are ok with your hypothetical dungeon dropping lvl 60 greens, then it's not a big deal if it can be done by some classes can do it in 20 min. If you want 60 blues, then it has to compare roughly to strath/scholo/DM. And by the way, no nonraid instance drops purples at a reasonable rate.

27 was a bit of an exageration, it's supposed to be one for each tree of each class. However, it would be atleast 9, and probably more. If you are really challenging the players, there will definatly be encounters that are very easy for shadow priests, and difficult for holy ones, and visa versa. If you don't make all the wings, it will be easymode for some classes/specs if it is possible for less optimal ones. And if it's easy mode, you can't pass out gear better then what you get in Strath/Scholo

[Warlock]

What promises specifically are you talking about?  I don't remember anyone suggesting that someone could get the same level of items through solo/small group play that one could get in the 40-man dungeons.
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I could just trot out the Shane Dabiri quote about power gamers, casuals and swords that burst into flame when used but I’m at work at the moment and a quick search hasn’t brought up the original text to link. I’m thinking more of the whole marketing push about how WoW was not going to be an EQ raid-or-die clone, that solo play would be viable right through the game, that players would always be able to log on and find something useful and interesting to do, that all playstyles would be supported and viable.

It was true, too. From 1-60 WoW was perhaps the best computer game I’d ever played; I could play alone or in a group at any time of the day at every level and feel like I was making progress. I grouped a lot because it was more fun, not because it was essential to either level or gear up. This was a revolutionary formula for MMO gaming and it brought Blizzard unprecedented success.

After 60 that game stops dead. If I wanted to play EQ, I’d have bought EQ; I want to keep playing the game WoW used to be.

[Warlock]

I didn't expect you to.  I was asking in general what you were looking for - lvl 60 greens, lvl 70 blue, lvl 65 purple... what?
See, there is a big jump in the amount of time you invest per instance as you move along.  WC, you do one time for 2 hours, probably.  Starting with BRD, if you want to continue to progress your character, you run dungeons multiple times.  And when you start raiding, you hit the same place maybe a hundred times.
So now the raiders have to play solo?  And yet it is unreasonable to expect people who want to solo to raid?
Yes, that is exactly it.  Blizzard tries (not always completly sucessfully) to balance the drops from an instance against the difficulty and duration of it.  This is the crux of the matter.  If you are ok with your hypothetical dungeon dropping lvl 60 greens, then it's not a big deal if it can be done by some classes can do it in 20 min.  If you want 60 blues, then it has to compare roughly to strath/scholo/DM.  And by the way, no nonraid instance drops purples at a reasonable rate.

27 was a bit of an exageration, it's supposed to be one for each tree of each class.  However, it would be atleast 9, and probably more.  If you are really challenging the players, there will definatly be encounters that are very easy for shadow priests, and difficult for holy ones, and visa versa.  If you don't make all the wings, it will be easymode for some classes/specs if it is possible for less optimal ones.  And if it's easy mode, you can't pass out gear better then what you get in Strath/Scholo
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I'm not Jarulf, but I'll take a stab at that.

Ilvl 20 greens and the occasional blues in a level 20 instance, Ilvl60 greens and blues in a level 60 instance, above that in metalevel >60 instances. With difficulty for each comparable to instances designed for larger groups.

Why not provide class skills this way? Some of the most interesting low level quests were for class skills, it's certainly a more interesting way to learn them than clicking on a trainer. Could be used just to provide an alternative method of obtaining those skills that are currently raid-only if nothing else.

27 different instances aren't needed. Just one (for each power level) that has some options on the way to the end would do. Depending on their class a player could go through the left room and fight the magic immune boss, the center one that needs some tricky stealth work or the right one and face a swarm you need to AOE down fast.

The game hasn't been out long enough to run any of the 7-day lockout instances a hundred times.

[Bob the Beholder]

The game hasn't been out long enough to run any of the 7-day lockout instances a hundred times.
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My guild has raided Molten Core 68 times. We started about 11 months after the game was released (If I'm remembering November 2004 as the release date).

It is entirely possible.