Naxxramas

[Jarulf]

4) Hardcore Limited - Time.  These players are hardcore.  Or would be, at any rate: they want to do great things and at least have something like the achievement drive of raiders.  Their problem is that they rarely have more than an hour straight to sit at a computer.  If they had the time, they'd raid.  Or 20-man.  Or 5-man.  They'd do more than they are doing, but they just can't.

You don't hear a lot from these guys on the forums (they don't have much time for those, either).  In general, they just want something they can work at in bits and pieces in the short snatches of time they have.  Even five-man instances often consume more time than these people have available; they want something you can work on for an hour here, an hour there, which ends up in something worth achieving. 

Yay, I am #4!!!

I agree on all aspects of above, including even 5-man simply taking to much time, at times.

To add, what I would like more of is non instance content that you still might group for. There are several such things including quests. Unfortunately, the rwards are typically such that it is not really worth it and no one wants to do it except for completion sake.

[Ashock]

Yay, I am #4!!!

I agree on all aspects of above, including even 5-man simply taking to much time, at times.

To add, what I would like more of is non instance content that you still might group for. There are several such things including quests. Unfortunately, the rwards are typically such that it is not really worth it and no one wants to do it except for completion sake.
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Yes, me too. That is another reason why I rarely post from home, and almost always from work. If I get an unexpected 30 min - 1 hours free at home at the time when I usually would be busy, I do not spend them posting. I play. Another reason why I got into BGs is that if I am lucky, I can get in 1 or 2 BGs (if I am very lucky) in at that time, whereas I would not get much done in the PVE world in that time.



-A

[Jarulf]

Yes, me too. That is another reason why I rarely post from home, and almost always from work. If I get an unexpected 30 min - 1 hours free at home at the time when I usually would be busy, I do not spend them posting. I play. Another reason why I got into BGs is that if I am lucky, I can get in 1 or 2 BGs (if I am very lucky) in at that time, whereas I would not get much done in the PVE world in that time.
-A
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One thing I would like to see is one man instances! Or perhaps "1 man raids". It is my understanding that raid dungeon does not reset or respawn like normal instances (why the heck to instances respawn anyway?). That would be fun and one could play them like the raid groups seems to do, part of one night, continue next and so on.

Obviously someone will complain and say that it is impossible to make one man instances that work for all classes to which I say, rubish! So what if some are easier for some classes? I am a bit tired of the game being so fanatically equal and identical for everyone and that there is not diversity. So, some of those 1-man instances are easier to some class, while some other would be harder. One might even make specific ones for each class, while yet playable for all, that way there is no problem, tailor each one for different clases and do the best to make it fun for all. Another alternative is to have them to be different depending on what class play, give the monsters some additional abilities depending on class. Just a though. I love playing lower level instances solo, for this very reason, of course, there is no exp or item rewards for that, but it is fun.

[lfd]

One thing I would like to see is one man instances! Or perhaps "1 man raids". It is my understanding that raid dungeon does not reset or respawn like normal instances (why the heck to instances respawn anyway?).[right][snapback]108103[/snapback][/right]

Different raid instances have trash respawn in different ways. In Blackwing Lair, none of the trash respawns with the exception of the scripted mobs in the Suppression Rooms (which stop respawning after the death of their associated boss, the Broodlord Lashlayer) and the little elementium goblin. However, almost all the (copious) trash in molten core respawns with the exception of two mob types that no longer respawn after their bosses are dead. Blizzard seem to be moving away from the shorter trash respawn timers in instances - thankfully - but it isn't a hard and fast rule.

I guess Blizzard think having things in instances respawn is a good penalty for groups that wipe too much, although given the length of some of their dungeons, I think they got it wrong in quite a few places.

[Ashock]

One thing I would like to see is one man instances! Or perhaps "1 man raids". It is my understanding that raid dungeon does not reset or respawn like normal instances (why the heck to instances respawn anyway?). That would be fun and one could play them like the raid groups seems to do, part of one night, continue next and so on.

Obviously someone will complain and say that it is impossible to make one man instances that work for all classes to which I say, rubish! So what if some are easier for some classes? I am a bit tired of the game being so fanatically equal and identical for everyone and that there is not diversity. So, some of those 1-man instances are easier to some class, while some other would be harder. One might even make specific ones for each class, while yet playable for all, that way there is no problem, tailor each one for different clases and do the best to make it fun for all. Another alternative is to have them to be different depending on what class play, give the monsters some additional abilities depending on class. Just a though. I love playing lower level instances solo, for this very reason, of course, there is no exp or item rewards for that, but it is fun.
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Yeh, I wish that too. However in all fairness, under the current raid or even instance structure, I do not see how this can happen. For solo, the best you can hope to handle is 1 Elite mob of your lvl, whereas all the instances/raids pretty much have 2 or more mobs that can not be separated.

If this were Diablo 3, you could make some suggestions to them and they might listen. For WoW, unfortunately no :-) I hope I am wrong...... ;)


-A

[MongoJerry]

Different raid instances have trash respawn in different ways.  In Blackwing Lair, none of the trash respawns with the exception of the scripted mobs in the Suppression Rooms (which stop respawning after the death of their associated boss, the Broodlord Lashlayer) and the little elementium goblin.  However, almost all the (copious) trash in molten core respawns with the exception of two mob types that no longer respawn after their bosses are dead.  Blizzard seem to be moving away from the shorter trash respawn timers in instances - thankfully - but it isn't a hard and fast rule.[right][snapback]108104[/snapback][/right]

The model they moved to with AQ20 and AQ40 is to have the trash mobs before each of the bosses linked to that boss. So, if you kill clear through the trash mobs and kill the boss, that particular set of trash mobs never respawn. It works pretty well.

[lfd]

The model they moved to with AQ20 and AQ40 is to have the trash mobs before each of the bosses linked to that boss.  So, if you kill clear through the trash mobs and kill the boss, that particular set of trash mobs never respawn.  It works pretty well.
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Except for C'Thun, I hear.

[Skandranon]

Except for C'Thun, I hear.
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The trash between the Twin Emperors and Ouro's room (there's no trash between Ouro and C'Thun, just a long tunnel) does not respawn, ever. It would be awfully discouraging if it did, because there's a lot of it, and it's not easy.

[Jarulf]

Yeh, I wish that too. However in all fairness, under the current raid or even instance structure, I do not see how this can happen. For solo, the best you can hope to handle is 1 Elite mob of your lvl, whereas all the instances/raids pretty much have 2 or more mobs that can not be separated.
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So, skip the elite mobs. The whole point of elite mobs is to make them have so much HP that you need several players to beat on it for it to die before you run out of your resources (including life ane mana). Since thise would be for one player, there is no such need.

[Bolty]

So, skip the elite mobs. The whole point of elite mobs is to make them have so much HP that you need several players to beat on it for it to die before you run out of your resources (including life ane mana). Since thise would be for one player, there is no such need.[right][snapback]108139[/snapback][/right]

The problems with 1-player content (instances) are many. Here's a few I can think of right off the bat:

1) You'd need a separate design for each class going in, but even then, it would be tough to balance for spec. The approach Cleoboltra would take in solo content (slowly whittling down enemies while using uber healing to mitigate incoming damage) is so vastly different from a shadow priest (melt face), that the balance would be rough. It's kind of like how the Benediction epic Priest quest is now - if you've got Holy Nova, it's a cakewalk after 1.10. Without, it's more of a challenge in line with how it used to be.

Meanwhile, how I'd approach solo content challenges would be very, very different for a rogue. What's easy for one class can be brutal for another.

2) Blizzard would spend months designing and tweaking these, and the solo player would blow through them in a day or two. If they're hard, a week or two. Without the interesting factor of group dynamics, I think it would get boring awfully fast. On a Sunday Morning with Miss Cleo (Stormrage Lurkers Sunday morning events) 2 weeks ago, we ran Dire Maul West and Scholomance with a resto-spec'ed Druid as main tank. That was fun, because it's quite a change of tactics compared to having a Warrior along. In solo content, your tactics would be the same each time, and there are no variables like the play of other players to keep it fresh.

3) Balance. The effect of gear post level cap is simply astounding. Blizzard cannot balance *anything* anymore, really, since the gap between epiced-out raiders and non-raiding 60's is so immense. Cleoboltra still has two blue items on her, a ring and an amulet, but the rest are purples. Net effect? On a duel the other day with a standard greens-and-blues recently-capped Warrior, she stood still, cast Shadow Word Pain on the Warrior and Renew on herself repeatedly, and beat the Warrior to a pulp with her staff. Nothing else was cast. No skill involved whatsoever; the Warrior simply couldn't outpace her Renew damage-wise, despite everything he tried. I know this sounds like an "my e-peen is bigger than yours" thing, but that's what a difference gear makes. If you balanced a solo instance for a capped level 60 Priest, either it'll be a challenge for Cleoboltra (and impossible for a non-raiding Priest), or a challenge to a non-raiding Priest and a complete joke to Cleoboltra. Blizzard can't win.

-Bolty

[Kjartan]

3) Balance.  The effect of gear post level cap is simply astounding.  Blizzard cannot balance *anything* anymore, really, since the gap between epiced-out raiders and non-raiding 60's is so immense.  Cleoboltra still has two blue items on her, a ring and an amulet, but the rest are purples.  Net effect?  On a duel the other day with a standard greens-and-blues recently-capped Warrior, she stood still, cast Shadow Word Pain on the Warrior and Renew on herself repeatedly, and beat the Warrior to a pulp with her staff.  Nothing else was cast.  No skill involved whatsoever; the Warrior simply couldn't outpace her Renew damage-wise, despite everything he tried.
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At this stage it is probably not worth the time to balance it out, but I hope they have a better plan in the expansion. What I would like to see is rewards progression for all types of players regardless of what they enjoy. As an example every new raid instance would be accompanied with a 5-10 man instance for non-casual+non-raiders, and an open zone with new quests that are doable with 1-2 people. Just like you don't skip MC to do BWL you couldn't skip those other zones/smaller instances to go to the next level. This would let the non-raiders get a callenge, as the new stuff would be balanced around you having gear from the previous zone.

The major problem with PvP and doing new non-raid content is the power difference. A level 60 with ilvl 80 epics has a meta-level of 80. Dueling someone in ilvl 60 blues is like a lvl 60 dueling a lvl 40. There is no way to balance that. If you match up ilvl 80 epics with ilvl 80 blues, the person with the epics has an edge, but it isn't as massive as the current imbalance.

Silitus/AQ would have been the perfect zone if they had made one of the smaller hives into a 5man instance (making it a bit larger of course), changed some of the combat quest not require killing elites (hard to solo) and have a few more non-repeatable quests. The 5man zone giving ilvl 75-80 blues, aq20 and aq40 just like now (well, aq40 itemization is a bit weird), and the solo stuff could give ilvl 75-80 greens until you get the rep up to get the current rewards. If done right per zone it would satisfy almost all the play styles out there, and let newer challenges actually be harder for the non-raiders while being rewarding.

You might end up some very skilled non-raiders getting Dungeon 5 sets then take on the Raid 3 zones, but as long as you make progression of raid zones tied together this can be curbed. Not many guilds would be able to get BWL on farm without getting the FR gear from MC first, or farming Onyxia long enough to get the cloaks made up.

[Quark]

Meanwhile, how I'd approach solo content challenges would be very, very different for a rogue.  What's easy for one class can be brutal for another.
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This can't be stressed enough. In Winterspring, there's a bunch of demons -> Hederine Slayers and Hederine Initiates. These are mobs that are supposed to take a 5-man party to kill.

Between my gear and class skills I can solo the Hederine Initiates, they are spellcasters and my goal is simply to prevent a single spell from getting cast. The Slayers would kill me in, say, 3 hits. Less is a nasty one crits.

Meanwhile, I've seen mages and hunters solo the Hederine Slayers, if not with ease, then with consistency.

I'd love to see 1-man instances, but honestly I'd rather see 3 new instances that are 5-man then a single 1-man instance that's correctly balanced for every class.

[Quark]

The major problem with PvP and doing new non-raid content is the power difference. A level 60 with ilvl 80 epics has a meta-level of 80. Dueling someone in ilvl 60 blues is like a lvl 60 dueling a lvl 40. There is no way to balance that. If you match up ilvl 80 epics with ilvl 80 blues, the person with the epics has an edge, but it isn't as massive as the current imbalance.[right][snapback]108146[/snapback][/right]

I'd argue "meta-level" of 80, mainly because your level (more accurately, your skill numbers) highly affect the outcome of battle. There's many ways to increase +defense, but not many +weapon and none +spell that I know of.

As for the ilvl thing, that's one thing that came up in chat last night. MC is huge for people. Not only is it the first 40 man, it's the first consistent epics and those epics are a higher ilvl.

The Dungeon sets are ilvl 57-63. Dungeon 2 is ilvl 65-66 blues, ilvl 55 and 60 epics looks like (and those just entered the game). Tier 1 is 66 epic. So most people are getting both an ilvl upgrade and an upgrade for going blue -> epic.

Reason this came up is people were mentioning how minor many upgrades have been for us recently. It's because we're starting to replace epics with epics, so all we're getting is the ilvl increase.

[Jarulf]

1) You'd need a separate design for each class going in, but even then, it would be tough to balance for spec.

So? That is why I said it doesn't have to be perfect in balance. In addition, one can respec after all as well.

The approach Cleoboltra would take in solo content (slowly whittling down enemies while using uber healing to mitigate incoming damage) is so vastly different from a shadow priest (melt face), that the balance would be rough.

And exactly how is that any different from any other content in the game (not talking instances here)? There are easy quests, there are tough quests. Some quests are hard for some character type but dead easy for others. Have some veriety in the one man instance so that different part requires different skills then, just one solution.

Meanwhile, how I'd approach solo content challenges would be very, very different for a rogue.  What's easy for one class can be brutal for another.

Exactly, but what is the problem? We are talking an instance here, not a single monster or group of monsters. Make various parts be difficulty for different character types, specs, items and so on. if one want perfect equality and exactly the same challenge for everyone at every time, the only solution is that everyone play the exact same character. In part you get that in instances and raids since you toss together a bit of everyone and can then design based on "they have it all and nothing should be missing".

2) Blizzard would spend months designing and tweaking these, and the solo player would blow through them in a day or two.  If they're hard, a week or two.  Without the interesting factor of group dynamics, I think it would get boring awfully fast.

So make them more interesting. People "blew through" dungoens in Diablo and Diablo 2 in seconds, yet came back to play more (disregarding the random layout). Have interesting but a bit rare drops and so on.

On a Sunday Morning with Miss Cleo (Stormrage Lurkers Sunday morning events) 2 weeks ago, we ran Dire Maul West and Scholomance with a resto-spec'ed Druid as main tank.  That was fun, because it's quite a change of tactics compared to having a Warrior along.  In solo content, your tactics would be the same each time, and there are no variables like the play of other players to keep it fresh.

So add the variable in the instance then, just as one example. Besides, if you look at the whole game except final dungeon, it is one big "run through it once" with a character as well and it is hardly less design or time going into all that. heck, many parts of the world are completely skiped by most players, making them even less played. I really don't agree with you here or see the problem.

3) Balance.  The effect of gear post level cap is simply astounding.  Blizzard cannot balance *anything* anymore, really, since the gap between epiced-out raiders and non-raiding 60's is so immense.

So, because they screwed up on items, lets not add any type of new content since the item problem makes it hard/impossible. Is that the stance they should take?

Besides, I don't really see the main problem. Just as a level 50 char can go back and cruise thorugh the newbie areas, should we remove the newbie areas? If not, what is the problem? Those that are decked out in the best items in the world perhaps are a bit "too late" for the challeneg of these instacnes, just as they are for all other instances except the last few raid dungeons. Yet, all the others still exists. If you really want to add and mess with the game, have the instance automatically adjust to what items or character you bring in, make it tougher or easier. heck, one could even add a "naked mode" if one want to have some fun. The possibilities are endless and the point is not to make it still hard for the "epiced-out raiders" as well as level 55 chars all at once. No idea where you got that strange idea from.

Cleoboltra still has two blue items on her, a ring and an amulet, but the rest are purples.  Net effect?  On a duel the other day with a standard greens-and-blues recently-capped Warrior, she stood still, cast Shadow Word Pain on the Warrior and Renew on herself repeatedly, and beat the Warrior to a pulp with her staff.  Nothing else was cast.  No skill involved whatsoever; the Warrior simply couldn't outpace her Renew damage-wise, despite everything he tried.  I know this sounds like an "my e-peen is bigger than yours" thing, but that's what a difference gear makes.

And exactly what does this have to do with solo instance?

  If you balanced a solo instance for a capped level 60 Priest, either it'll be a challenge for Cleoboltra (and impossible for a non-raiding Priest), or a challenge to a non-raiding Priest and a complete joke to Cleoboltra.  Blizzard can't win.

And? Why must out of all the game, the solo instance be the ONLY thing that should be equally challenging to a level 1 (or, heck a level 60 in green if you prefer) as well as to your Cleoboltra? Guess what, I entered the newbie area near Durator the other day finnishing a quest I had missed when I first started out my char. I could also stay there not even needing to cast renew and I could kill monsters in one hit with my dagger (just to level it up some). So, by your argumentation, newbie areas suck and should be removed since they are not properly balanced?

[Kjartan]

I'd argue "meta-level" of 80, mainly because your level (more accurately, your skill numbers) highly affect the outcome of battle.  There's many ways to increase +defense, but not many +weapon and none +spell that I know of.

So slight exaguration, but in every other area you are much more powerfull with those epics. You can survive longer, more stamina+armor. Kill faster, more spell power or agi/str. There is simply no way to balance any content for both styles of play. Make it a challange for the ilvl80 crowd and its impossible for the ilvl60s. Do it the other way around and its a cakewalk for the ilvl80s.

Reason this came up is people were mentioning how minor many upgrades have been for us recently.  It's because we're starting to replace epics with epics, so all we're getting is the ilvl increase.
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Yeah, but at least there are upgrades to raiding epics. If you look at the blues in the game there hasn't been any real ilvl increase to keep progressing.

[oldmandennis]

And? Why must out of all the game, the solo instance be the ONLY thing that should be equally challenging to a level 1 (or, heck a level 60 in green if you prefer) as well as to your Cleoboltra? Guess what, I entered the newbie area near Durator the other day finnishing a quest I had missed when I first started out my char. I could also stay there not even needing to cast renew and I could kill monsters in one hit with my dagger (just to level it up some). So, by your argumentation, newbie areas suck and should be removed since they are not properly balanced?
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Well... are you hoping to progress your gear in this theoretical dungeon? If you are, what sort of level and quality do you think you will see? If not, do you really think alot of people are going to spend alot of time on it? Especially the classes/specs for which it is difficult?

Durator is a silly argument and you know it. There are no blues to be had there, and not even alot of greens. The rest of the game is _roughly_ balanced where the rewards are somewhat proportional to the time, difficulty, and level of organization needed to obtain them. Unless your dungeon has 27 wings, you are going to have a real hard time coming close to that sort of balance, unless you drop lvl 60 greens.

[lemekim]

3) Balance.  The effect of gear post level cap is simply astounding.  Blizzard cannot balance *anything* anymore, really, since the gap between epiced-out raiders and non-raiding 60's is so immense.
-Bolty
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I think there is a little wiggle room for items that can be obtained from such instances. Specifically, the items can be specifically tailored and balanced to the needs of that class. For example, if the instance is designed for a warrior/rogue, the final boss can drop a bow/gun/crossbow that can have less DPS then regular weapon, but more stats, and the stats can be distributed more evenly to provide the biggest boost possible within that item budget. Similarly, this instance could be the source of wand that are better boosters of stats instead of being higher DPS. And Druids/Shamans/Paladins could get their relics there as well.

Or it could be the source of a belt enchant for various classes.

Yes, you still would have to design the instance for each class (or at least for groups of classes - melee, casters, healers), but the item balance can be resolved through other means.

[Thecla]

Well... are you hoping to progress your gear in this theoretical dungeon?...Durator is a silly argument and you know it.
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It's not a silly argument at all. A hypothetical epic-geared priest would presumably find such a hypothetical dungeon no more useful for improving his gear than a higher-level character would find Durator.

I agree myself with pretty much everything Jarulf has to say.

From one perspective, it's absolutely right to say WoW isn't Diablo and if you don't like it don't play it. (You can, after all, only play the game you have.). But one can also ask does the game really have to be the way it is? Myself, I don't think it does.

Balance in equipment doesn't bother me at all personally, so long as what I can get is adequate for what I want to do, and if it's barely adequate, all the better. (Most of Diablo consisted of being surrounded by people whose equipment was much better than mine, not always for illegitimate reasons, so I'm used to having bad equipment. ;) ) But there does have to be something I want to do.

I can understand people who PvP being upset by the equipment imbalance though. But IMO, irrespective of the arguments about the preeminence of raiding, the idea of balanced PvP, or that excellent skill can ever win out over excellent equipment in a game such as this one is a pipe dream, especially for an internet game where combat is necessarily averaged out over time to manage lag --- a point where the immediacy of D1's client side model really shone (despite all the resulting desync and cheating issues).

My main comment -- and I do have one -- is that solo play in WoW is extraordinarily routine. You grind experience essentially by mashing the same 4 or 5 keys from lvl 20 to lvl 60 (the class simply affects what those keys are bound to :) ). On the other hand, in the instances -- and no doubt raids -- monsters do all kinds of interesting things that require you to adjust your tactics.

It's as if Bliz wanted to make the outside, solo world as boring and uncreative as they possibly could to satisfy a moral imperative that people should group up and ultimately raid. (Something which I suspect comes from the underlying beliefs of the game designers, though I could be wrong. EQ, and EQ2, were certainly much more extreme that WoW in that respect, but it does seem that WoW -- much of whose success IMO is based on an apparent rejection of that philosophy -- ultimately adopts the same point of view.) There are surely all kinds of things Bliz could do to enhance the interest, challenges, and rewards for "category 4" players of WoW, but I don't think they want to.

[Warlock]

You might end up some very skilled non-raiders getting Dungeon 5 sets then take on the Raid 3 zones, but as long as you make progression of raid zones tied together this can be curbed. Not many guilds would be able to get BWL on farm without getting the FR gear from MC first, or farming Onyxia long enough to get the cloaks made up.
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Why would you want to curb it? Being able to shift from one playstyle to another of the same difficulty and rewards would be wonderful. Raiders could take a break from LatestRaidDungeon while still being appropriately challenged and rewarded, non-raiders could join a raid that's short a few members and still be able to usefully contribute, people with a foot in both camps could do whichever the prefer or whatever their schedule permits, guilds could require recruits to come properly equipped rather than having to farm old instances to gear them up., Blizz would get more value from thier development dollar because more people could usefully do each new release.

[Warlock]

Many single-player RPG's have content designed for one character, who will have varying skills and equipment when running the dungeon. So providing the same in WOW doesn't seem an insuperable challenge to me. If playtesters find that class X has particular trouble with a key spot, provide a way around it with a different but comparable challenge.