Lethal Injection Under Fire Again

[Doc]

Occhi, the residential schools were nothing short of an abomination, intended as a solution to the "indian problem".  Their goal was assimilationist, to wipe out traces of native culture and "Anglicize".

A pair of short summaries, the Canadian government's response, and a CBC documentary :) :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools
http://www.canadian-health-network.ca/serv...ource〈=En
From the Government of Canada
From the CBC
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All of this disgusts me. Makes me sick to my stomach it does. I would say something, but it might be taken as being blatantly racist rather than an objective observation.

Ugh.

[Chaerophon]

All of this disgusts me. Makes me sick to my stomach it does. I would say something, but it might be taken as being blatantly racist rather than an objective observation.

Ugh.
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It's definitely the skeleton in Canada's closet. If you get a chance, you should have a look at the documentary footage. Thankfully, the government and the churches involved have been quite forthcoming, and have not tried to sweep it all away.

[Occhidiangela]

Poor choice of words.  I didn't intend to convey that there aren't many cases of abuse; rather, I wanted to note that, as isolated anecdotes, particular cases of abuse can quite easily be used to incite public outrage in lieu of a more moderate and considered response in light of consideration of the system and its effects as a whole.
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Oh, like Rodney King? Like Willie Horton? *muffled guffaw into hand*

Thanks for the links to the school program. It looks in structure and intent to be a program similar to what the Spanish attempted to implement here in Texas, with little success, in Mexico and California, with some success, and elsewhere with mixed results. The Crusader spirit from the reconquista carried over powerfully in El Nuevo Mundo, and in Nueva España. The successor system, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, had a less than spotless record, here in the Lower Forty Eight, in discharging their charter. We seem to have that in common! (What was I saying to Jester the other day? Sucks to be conquered. ;) )

No system, however well intentioned, is going to produce a beneficial result if it is administered without integrity. This includes the school program you mentioned, and welfare programs in general.

QED

Thanks for again helping me make a point. :D

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

All of this disgusts me. Makes me sick to my stomach it does. I would say something, but it might be taken as being blatantly racist rather than an objective observation.

Ugh.
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Standard colonial practices. Standard spreading of Enlightenment Ideals in the 19th century. Standard 20th century "Progressive" methods and intentions.

Standard human corruption at work. Standard FUBAR that crops up when the State tries to replace the family.

Nothing new to see here, Doc, move along. OK, other than state sponsored kidnapping, nothing new to see here. :o

*ponders how conscription is similar, and different, in both process and intent*

Occhi

[Doc]

Standard colonial practices.  Standard spreading of Enlightenment Ideals in the 19th century.  Standard 20th century "Progressive" methods and intentions.

Standard human corruption at work.  Standard FUBAR that crops up when the State tries to replace the family. 

Nothing new to see here, Doc, move along.  OK, other than state sponsored kidnapping, nothing new to see here.  :o 

*ponders how conscription is similar, and different, in both process and intent*

Occhi
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I'll say it anyway.

White folks as a whole confound me. They seem to have this collective sense that it is somehow ok for them to bleach the whole world and make it white in their image. History is full of examples I could use.

Not trying to sound racist or anything or be hateful. It's just an observation.

If I had my way, everybody would be like me. Mixed beyond all sense of reason. There would no longer be racism. Just human beings... People. Brown people of various shades, but people. I think this attitude scares white folks, because white stains so easily. Once you stain it, it's tough making it white again.

[Chaerophon]

Occhi, at this point I don't even know what you're talking about.

Oh, like Rodney King? Like Willie Horton? *muffled guffaw into hand*

I'm talking about welfare abusers (stories about women having children for extra welfare benefits, using the money for booze, etc), and you're talking about abusive police practices...

As for this:

Thanks for again helping me make a point. biggrin.gif

I still don't see how I helped you to make a point. 1.) The purpose of the residential schools was not to "help" natives through the stabilizing influence of voluntary social welfare provision. The purpose was to forcibly "cure" them of their heritage. Those are two very different things.

[Chaerophon]

White folks as a whole confound me. They seem to have this collective sense that it is somehow ok for them to bleach the whole world and make it white in their image. History is full of examples I could use.

Doc, this is a well-acknowledged problem, a national source of shame, and the subject of massive reparations/criminal proceedings in the modern day. On the basis of this particular case, I think that you are mistaken to make such a generalization. I can't speak for people in the deep south, but I do not know a single person who thinks that residential schools were "okay". I'm sure that there are some of them around, but the vast majority feel the same way that I do.

[Doc]

Doc, this is a well-acknowledged problem, a national source of shame, and the subject of massive reparations/criminal proceedings in the modern day.  On the basis of this particular case, I think that you are mistaken to make such a generalization.
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Ah, but it's not this particular case is it?

Nooooooo.

It's the First, Second, and Third Reich, and the slow but steady rising of the Fourth. It is the enslavement of entire nations and depriving them of arms and liberty, like the English did to India, which is a black and terrible crime. It's snatching their children away from them and teaching them proper white subservience and to obey, submit, and comform.

I think it's best summed up in the words of white supremacists themselves. White people are the only race threatened with extinction by breeding so maintaining purity is of utmost importance, otherwise the white race will disapear forever. Selective breeding and the creation of systems that encourages selective breeding is of utmost importance, as is the maintainance of said system, as to insure the survival of the white race for all time.

And I'll say it again, those words are said by white folks. It's your standard generic Klan propoganda. Sadly, it has a grain of truth.

Let's hope this stays reasonable and does not turn in to an all out flamewar. This whole post has been quite good so far and everybody has remained civil. I hope it stays that way.

[Chaerophon]

There's no need for it to become a flamewar, Doc. The fact is, you're talking about a group who makes up far less than 1% of the white population, and extremist sentiments that are shared by, to be extremely generous to you, less than 5% of the white population, as though it is a dominant theme in our "behind the scenes" "white man" meetings. There are lots of people out there who hold racist sentiments to varying degrees. I have not personally met a single person where I live who would openly come up with what you just spouted off. It's simply not on the map. There are a few white supremacists around here, I know that, but it's just not as prevalent as you seem to think. There's no high-level conspiracy. White supremacists tend to be idiots: you know this.

As a white person who knows lots of other white people and has never personally encountered such an individual in my entire life, in school, athletics, politics, or social circles, I do find the generalization a tad offensive.

With that, I'll just shake my head and walk away.

[Doc]

There's no need for it to become a flamewar, Doc.  The fact is, you're talking about a group who makes up far less than 1% of the white population, and extremist sentiments that are shared by, to be extremely generous to you, less than 5% of the white population, as though it is a dominant theme in our "behind the scenes" "white man" meetings.  There are lots of people out there who hold racist sentiments to varying degrees.  I have not personally met a single person where I live who would openly come up with what you just spouted off.  It's simply not on the map.  There are a few white supremacists around here, I know that, but it's just not as prevalent as you seem to think.  There's no high-level conspiracy.  White supremacists tend to be idiots: you know this.   

As a white person who knows lots of other white people and has never personally encountered such an individual in my entire life, in school, athletics, politics, or social circles, I do find the generalization a tad offensive.

With that, I'll just shake my head and walk away.
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It's not the 90 to 95% that are just fine that I have issues with. It's the small percentage that suddenly think it's a great idea to go on a genocidal killing spree. As for white supremacists being being idiots, I disagree. Many are, but some are quite charismatic and dangerous, and draw the idiots to them, organises them, and then lets them loose on the world to wreck stuff. I am scared of those guys. I've seen and met a number of them in my life, and history books are full of examples of even more. There IS an agenda out there. It may not be a mainstream agenda, but it exists and people carry the torch waiting for the right time when they can set the masses on fire to achieve their own ends. It is a cycle that never ends. It's the crusader mentality teamed with mob rule.

It exists... It is very, very real. It's because of people refusing to acknowledge it that it continues to fester unnoticed and grow unchecked until it becomes a problem again. "Oh no, there is no agenda, it doesn't exist, your crazy!" And then it manifests it self yet again, and everybody previously saying that it didn't exist go around saying "We never saw this coming! There was no warning! We had no way of knowing this was going to happen! How could have anybody known that this could have happened?"

And then it dies down, people drop their guard, and it happens again on the next unsuspecting generations that refuse to listen. That's why there has been three reichs so far... And a fourth one gaining strength. Plus plenty of isolated hotspots along the way. People would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

I hope I get to live long enough to proclaim I told you so when the right time comes.

[Chaerophon]

Doc, I must admit that I have been a little taken aback with the rhetoric that has been deemed "acceptable" in the U.S. during the recent immigration controversy.

However, you can't say things like this:

White folks as a whole confound me. They seem to have this collective sense that it is somehow ok for them to bleach the whole world and make it white in their image. History is full of examples I could use.

...without expecting someone to take offense. :rolleyes: Have you seen MTV? :D

[Occhidiangela]

Occhi, at this point I don't even know what you're talking about. 
I'm talking about welfare abusers (stories about women having children for extra welfare benefits, using the money for booze, etc), and you're talking about abusive police practices...

Besides the King case being a bit more complex than the general public ever bothered to look into, beyond the inflammatory symbols and images . . .

I am referring to anecdotal episodes, a la Rodney King, or other anecdotal cases used as an image or a symbol. See Willie Horton and his role in the Bush-Dukakis race of 1988. Horton was a convict on a weekend parole who subsequently committed a rape. The matter is the political rhetoric and pursuit of various agenda by using anecdotes as symbols. Elian Gonzalez as well.

As for this:
I still don't see how I helped you to make a point.  1.) The purpose of the residential schools was not to "help" natives through the stabilizing influence of voluntary social welfare provision.  The purpose was to forcibly "cure" them of their heritage.  Those are two very different things.

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The point I was on about is the State interfering with parents and the raising of their kids. The do gooders and progressives determined that their "better idea" was superior to how the Indians raised their own children, and that it was better for the country, and for the Indians, so they forcibly infringe on the parents' raising of their children. More flies with honey if you ask me, like put the schools on or near the reservation and slowly work on "meeting them halfway." That takes patnience, which Progressives rarely seem to have.

Occhi

Edit to add Horton link

[Doc]

Doc, I must admit that I have been a little taken aback with the rhetoric that has been deemed "acceptable" in the U.S. during the recent immigration controversy. 

However, you can't say things like this:
...without expecting someone to take offense.  :rolleyes:  Have you seen MTV? :D
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No. Not for maybe 10 years or so. I became disgusted with the idiotic images being peddled to minorities and the trend setters spoonfeeding them stuff to make them think they are cool, when in fact, they are just making themselves look like idiots. It's just another form of control to keep minorities down. Sell them an image that the gullible are stupid enough to latch on to and then watch them wreck themselves. Just another layer in the system of conformity and control by the establishment. If you can cause a group of people to present themselves in such a rediculous fashion then nobody has any problem at all not taking them seriously. You can easily set the trends which cause the foolish to discredit themselves, their voice nullified.

I agree with Cosby on these one. Pull your damn pants up and show a little respect for your self. Speak like a normal person. And those are your teeth, not the grill on a Mack truck damnit. Nobody wants to see your drawers or the crack of your ass either.

Destroy an entire generation of a race by selling them an image to aspire to. Bah humbug.

[Chaerophon]

I agree with Cosby on these one. Pull your damn pants up and show a little respect for your self. Speak like a normal person. And those are your teeth, not the grill on a Mack truck damnit. Nobody wants to see your drawers or the crack of your ass either.

Destroy an entire generation of a race by selling them an image to aspire to. Bah humbug.

I guess I walked into that one, didn't I. Just trying to lighten the mood :whistling: :D

[Drasca]

Destroy an entire generation of a race by selling them an image to aspire to. Bah humbug.
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There is still yet hope! Behold the geek, a most curious creature. The geek cares not for what is popular, gravitates not towards the image trendy, nay, such illusionist images affect not the geek. And sometimes what the geek is interested in becomes what the world is! Job in button pushing computers? That would've been a jetsons job 20-30 years ago, now can be quite cushy. Gaming? For a job? The gaming industry is larger than movies last I heard...

Fear not! The geek is resistent to such image mongering! There's always going to be a section of the population that simply doesn't care what the other thinks. So, there's hope.

*Darn crash ate original post.

[Doc]

There is still yet hope! Behold the geek, a most curious creature. The geek cares not for what is popular, gravitates not towards the image trendy, nay, such illusionist images affect not the geek. And sometimes what the geek is interested in becomes what the world is! Job in button pushing computers? That would've been a jetsons job 20-30 years ago, now can be quite cushy. Gaming? For a job? The gaming industry is larger than movies last I heard...

Fear not! The geek is resistent to such image mongering! There's always going to be a section of the population that simply doesn't care what the other thinks. So, there's hope.

*Darn crash ate original post.
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Drasca, allow me to say, I have always enjoyed the prose that comes from your fingers. At times, it can be delightfully cheeky, yet still be chock full of wit and wisdom, and some times littered with a fine pop culture tidbit.

Thanks.

[Occhidiangela]

There is still yet hope! Behold the geek, a most curious creature. The geek cares not for what is popular, gravitates not towards the image trendy, nay, such illusionist images affect not the geek. And sometimes what the geek is interested in becomes what the world is! Job in button pushing computers? That would've been a jetsons job 20-30 years ago, now can be quite cushy. Gaming? For a job? The gaming industry is larger than movies last I heard...

Fear not! The geek is resistent to such image mongering! There's always going to be a section of the population that simply doesn't care what the other thinks. So, there's hope.

*Darn crash ate original post.
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"And the geek shall inherit the Earth."

*Sung by Geddy Lee, in an out take from the 2112 album?*

Occhi

[GriffonSpade]

"And the geek shall inherit the Earth."

*Sung by Geddy Lee, in an out take from the 2112 album?*

Occhi
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Yes, but we better make sure the geeks inheriting the power aren't Darth Geeks :shuriken:

Hmm, gone gaming for 3 days and come back and much has been said! I've come to several general conclusions.

Our legal system sucks, but could be worse.
Our welfare system sucks, but could be worse.
Our social services suck, but could be worse.
Our prisons REALLY suck, but could be worse.
Society in general sucks, but could be worse.
People suck, but could be worse.
Politicians, lawyers, and criminals suck, but geeks and nerds are awesome. B)

(People that come to conclusions on their own instead of simply accepting what others tell them are generally better people. Just gotta watch out for the ones that decide respecting others and being courteous aren't important!)

One can argue all day and night forever onward whether or not it is acceptable to execute those who have done the unforgivable(that is, the most severe of crimes) because one side is rooted in justice, while the other in integrity.

Also I'd like to point out that outline view is a pain in my arse, and I refuse to use it; when I reply to something, I am not always arguing against it, sometimes I am commenting on it, commenting in general, agreeing with you, disagreeing with why or what you believe, the methodology of your beliefs, or even just parts of any of these things, and sometimes even trying to be funny to some degree, making my posts every bit as complex as the issue at hand. I guess this could set some people off at me for misunderstanding, eh? (Stupid complex world and its stupid complex issues. :o )

All in all, life sucks, but it could be worse, so maybe it doesn't really suck at all?

[Occhidiangela]

STUFF

Our legal system sucks, but could be worse.
Our welfare system sucks, but could be worse.
Our social services suck, but could be worse.
Our prisons REALLY suck, but could be worse.
Society in general sucks, but could be worse.
People suck, but could be worse.
Politicians, lawyers, and criminals suck, but geeks and nerds are awesome. B)

STUFF

All in all, life sucks, but it could be worse, so maybe it doesn't really suck at all?
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GriffonSpade

That post sucked, but it could have been worse. :P


:rolleyes:

:shuriken:

:blink:

:whistling:

B)

J/K. Couldn't resist.

Occhi

[Drasca]

Yes, but we better make sure the geeks inheriting the power aren't Darth Geeks shuriken.gif

From forth the darth vaders and anakins come lukes! When lukes come to fruition, then they realize 'there is another' leias! Just avoid the freaky incest when they don't realize they're twins. Sometimes, even vaders :ph34r: can be redeemed! I'd argue that having Luke face the Emperor wasn't about good defeating evil (Luke assasinating emperor), but redemption of good (Luke's father) from evil (Darth Vader). Heck, Darth Vader's the perfect living analogy as a man becoming more machine, and dedicated to the systems than making his own decisions. If luke killed the emperor, he would've fallen into the same trap of being a slave to the machinations of others. Of course, I am not the originator of this idea, Joeseph Campbell (professor and the man George Lucas consulted for mythology) explained it in the TV production "The Power of Myth", but Darth Vader = Machine is not a hard concept to figure out. Taking Vader as a microcosm for slave to machine of government and tradition, is (evil sith tradition!)

Yes, I am a geek, but I've got big sticks and know how to use them.

Of course, now is the time for all other star wars geeks to chime in and challenge me to a idea-saber duel.

That post sucked, but it could have been worse.  :P

J/K.  Couldn't resist.
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Hyuck hyuck hyuck! :w00t: