Naxxramas

[MongoJerry]

On the official Blizzard forums, Tseric writes in response to a player complaining that Naxxramas will only be for hardcore raiders:

The introduction of Naxrammas is not just going to be about the floating necropolis. With 1.11 we plan to bring some of the urgency of the scourge invasion back to the fore-front of players minds and reestablish the conflict between the scourge and the races of Azeroth. We wish to bring attention and involvement to any and all players.

Or, in more direct terms, we wish to reignite the sense of "fight or flight" for people all over Azeroth. In one way or another, this war will touch on players lives more directly, now that the lair of Kel'Thuzad hovers over the lands and the lich's influence is tangibly focused. Many shall be driven by mobs of the undead, others shall challenge their footholds. Mercy will be in short supply.

[Raelynn]

To me, that response still doesn't help the fact that more and more stuff is coming out for a smaller and smaller population of the game. The harder the instances get, the less people actually see the content in them. It might be interesting to see if they can pull of a *good* world event ( :angry: stupid gate opening), but the fact remains that the majority of the content is aimed towards the small group of hardcore raiders, while the content that does come out for casuals reeks of last minute hacks ( :angry: stupid D2 quests).

Sorry. I guess I'm a bit bitter about it.

[Quark]

The harder the instances get, the less people actually see the content in them.

I don't believe that. MC looked impossible to me a year ago. We now clear it twice a week. When BWL came out, I thought "I'll never see that". We're now working on Nefarian. When AQ came out, I was thinking "maybe in a few months," it won't be much longer now.

If I chose, I could get away with seeing all this content by signing on 2 or 3 days a week, at a 4 hour session a pop. Who your playing with is so much more important than how much time you play for what you accomplish.

MC used to be quite exclusive. Few guilds ran it, and they weren't exactly throwing out free invites. Now? I see a new name pop up on our second MC lock every week. The game is getting easier over time, due to simple transfer of information and practice. As it does so, it becomes more manageable for those with less time. The key is simply finding people who allow those with less time to join in on the fun.

[lemekim]

I think another problem with the new content is that it seems you cannot just stop doing the old one either. So when Naxxramas comes out, you will have people in big raids running MC, BWL, Onyxia, AQ, Naxx, with ZG and AQ20 thrown in between. That pretty much means raiding every day of the week. People simply get burned out. I don't really know how to fix it - randomized dungeons and taking out tier 2 drops from the very last boss in MC could be a start.

This game have developed into a hardcore PvE raiding game. There just isn't enough "War" in the World of Warcraft. PvP is a heavy, long grind, and the last Battleground came out many months ago. Originally Blizzard said they wanted to stay away from the path that Everquest took, and yet it seems they ended up there anyway. But I guess that's a bit off-topic =(

[Bun-Bun]

I don't believe that.  MC looked impossible to me a year ago.  We now clear it twice a week.  When BWL came out, I thought "I'll never see that".  We're now working on Nefarian.  When AQ came out, I was thinking "maybe in a few months," it won't be much longer now.

Some of us are still in the "I'll never see that" camp. :)

If I chose, I could get away with seeing all this content by signing on 2 or 3 days a week, at a 4 hour session a pop.  Who your playing with is so much more important than how much time you play for what you accomplish.

THis assumes that one can devote 12 hours a week to raiding (in addition to anything else one wants to do in the game), and that those raids are always scheduled at reasonable times.

MC used to be quite exclusive.  Few guilds ran it, and they weren't exactly throwing out free invites.  Now?  I see a new name pop up on our second MC lock every week.  The game is getting easier over time, due to simple transfer of information and practice.  As it does so, it becomes more manageable for those with less time.  The key is simply finding people who allow those with less time to join in on the fun.
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You're correct that MC is much more accessible now. What was available to 2% of the population is now open to 5%. Or maybe 10% to 30%. I don't have good numbers on this, but I think it's still a small subset. Replace those numbers with even smaller numbers for BWL.

I think you may not realize the privileged position you're in with respect to the unwashed masses. I feel Raelynn is correct in seeing such content as aimed at a minority of the population.

There is also the question of not just access, but appeal. Increasingly tightly-scripted mass battles are not for everyone. They are most definitely not a continuation of the 1-59 content "feel".

[Artega]

To me, that response still doesn't help the fact that more and more stuff is coming out for a smaller and smaller population of the game.  The harder the instances get, the less people actually see the content in them.  It might be interesting to see if they can pull of a *good* world event ( :angry: stupid gate opening), but the fact remains that the majority of the content is aimed towards the small group of hardcore raiders, while the content that does come out for casuals reeks of last minute hacks ( :angry: stupid D2 quests).

Sorry.  I guess I'm a bit bitter about it.
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I'll be bitter with you; I bought this game for PvP, and so far they've done nothing but implement a crippled Honor System, BGs that are for either server (I still strongly feel BGs should be for PvP servers only), and destroyed town and capital raiding due to DKs.

On top of this, the "new" tier2 (and I'm going to consider Naxxramas and C'thun tier3 if Naxxramas is a vertical step instead of a lateral one from BWL/Nefarian) gear, and to a lesser extent the tier1 gear, have ruined the good class balance that exists at tier0. Because of this, it's quite easy to "do well" in BGs and general PvP even if you suck horribly at it - a person in tier2 (especially melee classes, which benefit the most from improved gear) will absolutely destroy tier0 and have little trouble against tier1.

I'd love to see PvP become skill-based instead of gear-based, but I know that's not going to happen because it would mean Rob Pardo would have to wait a few more months before he can get that new Ferrari.

[Warlock]

I quit the game due to the raid focus - I just don't enjoy that style of play and had had enough. When the third best weapon in the game can be obtained by a skilled and dedicated small group I might think about coming back (PVP gets the best, raiders the second best). Currently quite happy catching up on my strategy gaming, so that could be a while.

[fractaled]

I'll be bitter with you; I bought this game for PvP, and so far they've done nothing but implement a crippled Honor System, BGs that are for either server (I still strongly feel BGs should be for PvP servers only), and destroyed town and capital raiding due to DKs.

I agree with most of this. DKs are stupid, they shouldn't even exist on PvP servers. And if Blizzard is so worried about quest givers, just make them immune.

I have no idea why you oppose BGs on PvE servers.

Itemization is unfortunately the core of WoW. Items are fine 1-59, but then Blizzard ran out of ideas of how to keep the 60s happy, so they keep making new shiny weapons. It's an arms race that will never end and will destabalize everything in the game.

[MongoJerry]

Itemization is unfortunately the core of WoW. Items are fine 1-59, but then Blizzard ran out of ideas of how to keep the 60s happy, so they keep making new shiny weapons. It's an arms race that will never end and will destabalize everything in the game.

I don't mind the arms race so much. Someone in tier 2 epics should probably beat someone in blues. However, what bothers me is how much faster offense has grown compared to defense. My philosophy is that a fight between two players in tier 2 epics should last about as long as fights between two players in blues. Unfortunately, that's not the case at all.

[smithy]

I don't mind the arms race so much.  Someone in tier 2 epics should probably beat someone in blues.  However, what bothers me is how much faster offense has grown compared to defense.  My philosophy is that a fight between two players in tier 2 epics should last about as long as fights between two players in blues.  Unfortunately, that's not the case at all.
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Can you name me one game (MMORPG) where EQUIPMENT based classes (rogues, warriors, etc) haven't eclipsed less equipment (basically the casters) dependent classes as Raid Loot Came out?

I don't say that to be a jerk. I honestly can't think of one.

As you know Mongo, I haven't played in a long while, but I wouldn't hold out hope until the expansion comes out. Blizzard is going to have to implement entirely new game mechanics to deal with the Arms Race as you put it.

Just as it was in Everquest.... the name of the game is damage.

If Tier 2 epics just do more damage, then the result is that players with inferior equpment just die faster.

If Tier 2 epics also increase defense proportionally, inferior eqipped characters would hardly be able to damage the better equiped ones. What fun is that?

Smithy

[MongoJerry]

Can you name me one game (MMORPG) where EQUIPMENT based classes (rogues, warriors, etc) haven't eclipsed less equipment (basically the casters) dependent classes as Raid Loot Came out?

All the classes are having this happen to them.

Just as it was in Everquest.... the name of the game is damage.

If Tier 2 epics just do more damage, then the result is that players with inferior equpment just die faster.

If Tier 2 epics also increase defense proportionally, inferior eqipped characters would hardly be able to damage the better equiped ones.  What fun is that?

It doesn't have to be. Offense can be scaled back in half and the defensive stats can be doubled. Again, tier 2 versus blues doesn't concern me. However, a person in tier 2's shouldn't be one or two shotted by anyone, even a fellow person in tier 2's. Unfortunately, they can currently and that's a problem. Like Artega, I like the balance in this game at the blues level. There's skill, balance, and tactics there. At the high-end epics level, winning a fight is merely a funciton of whether your trinkets and/or cooldowns are available to one or two shot the next person. It's not so fun.

[smithy]

All the classes are having this happen to them.
It doesn't have to be.  Offense can be scaled back in half and the defensive stats can be doubled.  Again, tier 2 versus blues doesn't concern me.  However, a person in tier 2's shouldn't be one or two shotted by anyone, even a fellow person in tier 2's.  Unfortunately, they can currently and that's a problem.  Like Artega, I like the balance in this game at the blues level.  There's skill, balance, and tactics there.  At the high-end epics level, winning a fight is merely a funciton of whether your trinkets and/or cooldowns are available to one or two shot the next person.  It's not so fun.
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The high level gear was really my point.

I can't think of one MMORPG, at least the ones that I have played, that didn't become unbalanced once the high-end gear started dropping.

How do you stop high-end chars from being overpowered on the offensive side. If you increase the defense rating proportionally, then everyone without that equip becomes completely ineffective. At least, if the defense doesn't scale up drastically, the lower-geared players can still do damage.

smithy

EDIT: The point I am trying to make is that in game like WoW that is so Gear dependant (especially with raid gear) there is no way to balance the raid gear with lower tier gear.

If you lower the offense of aid weapons to where they can't 1-2 shot someone with lesser equipment, what's the point of spending all that time to get the raid gear?

If you increase the raid item's defnse to the point where the raid weapons can no longer 1-2 shot those people with raid gear, then the lower tiered players become completely ineffective.

[Yurup]

I also think MC is becomming more accessable. My guild has just started raiding MC and we are already down to the 4th boss. More on their way tonight. We plan on taking out 2 more.

[Hedon]

I think another problem with the new content is that it seems you cannot just stop doing the old one either. So when Naxxramas comes out, you will have people in big raids running MC, BWL, Onyxia, AQ, Naxx, with ZG and AQ20 thrown in between. That pretty much means raiding every day of the week. People simply get burned out. I don't really know how to fix it - randomized dungeons and taking out tier 2 drops from the very last boss in MC could be a start.

QFT

Major raid burn out is common phenomenon nowadays in the World of Azeroth. First it was blamed on the subpar design and itemization of AQ, but more and more voices suspect underlying fundemantal issues, such as an overboarding raid duty as you have pointed out.

This is exactly what is happening in our raid alliance. Before AQ went live we were a happy bunch of raiders, with two to three raiddays a week for MC and BWL, plus casual raidcontent such as ZG or Onyxia. We could be competive raid in terms of BWL progression and had also enough capacity to do "farm" content such as MC. As AQ-Gates opened we quickly found out that with only up to three raid days a week we just couldn't hope to stay competitive in the AQ progression race as well as provide for ongoing and constant MC and BWL farming.

Since most of our members are not willing or not able to raid five or more days a week, a schism has erupted in our guild, between those wo want to explore and conquer new content and those who would rather want to reliably farm the older raid instances.

Now a vicious cycle has erupted: as more and more of the well equiped veteran players faded out from raiding, the raid leadership had to recruit new people often still in their T0 set. Now these people of course campaign for more MC farming to get their easy epics, offputting even more veterans who can't bring themself to do MC runs anymore, so more veterans fade out from raiding etc. We are recruiting like crazy, while raiding seems to suck more and more.



There are many such such stories to be read on the WoW-Forums. Please note that this time it isn't a rebellion of the have-nots (non raiding casuals), against the epic equipped have-everythings (raiding guild members). This time dedicated raiders themselves are complaining.

From all the threads on the WoW-Forums regarding this phenomenon I recommend that one for reading.

http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.asp...-en&T=57744&P=1


This post from it sums up my feelings the best:

I belong to the category of players that left WoW after AQ opened.
The reason behind this decision is rather simple. Time sink. Until AQ opened it was rather ok, as we had 2-3 days weekly for doing BWL in a relaxed fashion, 1 for MC and the others for breathing, for farming, to go out with friends, to study, to have a life outside WoW. There was some sort of a balance.
Then AQ opened and as we rushed to kill stuff in it I realised I'm grinding again, as I have in one way or another been doing since february of last year. And in order to do that and ensure progress (that we all know requires countless attempts and practice) I would have to give up the 2 days per week that I had free. For what?Some crappy loot that gives me +5% AP? Is the scenery new at least? Encounters ground breaking? No. It's basically same "$!@% different day".

I understand that "pro-gaming" requires dedication and a huge amount of time invested. But as long as raiding hours are set at around 19-20 CET and we have 3-5 instances to grind so as to keep people equipped and competitive, pro-gaming becomes the antonym of having a life.
Some might be willing to reach that point, as I wasn't.
I also understand the thrill of downing bosses. I was there for almost all new important kills since Rag and up to Sartura and I felt the rush you all know. But just as the taste of Pringles or smoking, it gets old at some point. The thrill is gone and it becomes a reflex.

As officer and raid leader in my guild (with my main ofc) I have seen a lot of crisis-like situations and a variety of issues and I did my best to help contain them. But this one was clearly the deepest as it does not concern individuals but the WoW community as a whole and as it was pretty much beyond us to mend it.
Blizzard threw at us another instance while logistics stayed the same (time invested, people needed, rewards, scenario) and it gives us a push to be competitive in regard to other guilds (ego is the main reason for itemizing). But it does all that without considering the implications i.e. people not being able to invest that much time and becoming frustrated. And that's just a step away from quitting the game.

[Warlock]

If one type of activity in a role playing game is better rewarded than others, many players will focus on that activity in order to develop their character.

Doing any single activity often enough becomes boring.

Combine these two and you get the current situation. The problem isn't raiding per se, it's the lack of viable alternatives - if the deeprun tram suddenly becomes a reliable source of Legendary items a lot of people currently raiding will begin doing nothing but riding the rails and burn out on that instead.

If every style of play provided players with roughly equivalent equipment (same ilvl and quality, different stat mixes) for roughly equivalent effort, players could mix up their activities without slowing the development of their character. I know I'd enjoy that more, but I don't think it will ever happen in WoW. The last year has seen the release of five instances for raids and not a single one for small groups - it's pretty clear to me that the designers intend for raiding to remain the most effective means of character progression by a wide margin.

[Raelynn]

EDIT:  The point I am trying to make is that in game like WoW that is so Gear dependant (especially with raid gear) there is no way to balance the raid gear with lower tier gear. 

If you lower the offense of aid weapons to where they can't 1-2 shot someone with lesser equipment, what's the point of spending all that time to get the raid gear?

If you increase the raid item's defnse to the point where the raid weapons can no longer 1-2 shot those people with raid gear, then the lower tiered players become completely ineffective.
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Taking the defense being less than offense, there is a way to balance out the end game. That is to add a way to get greens and blues that have the same ilevel as the purples and such. The game is much more balanced early on because there are green, blues, and purples, each a certain distance apart in terms of power level. Once the end game happens, however, the greens and blues stop completely. The purples continue to increase in power, and there's nothing to compare to them. An ilevel 80 blue would be a great weapon, but not quite as powerful as an ilevel 80 purple. Without those greens and blues available, there will never be a balance to the weapons because the more "casual" items (i.e. greens and blues) just stop progressing completely around ilevel 65.

Personally, I liked an idea I saw at least for BGs where everyone got an item set going into the fight. It puts everyone on equal grounds for gear at least, so you end up seeing a battle of skill instead. It doesn't help much for the groups that seed their battles so it's always a PuG against a guild raid though. :\

I also want to see level limits on enchants with the enchants taken away retroactively. Level 19 rogues with firey weapon are taking away the fun and use of playing BGs early into the game.

[MongoJerry]

Major raid burn out is common phenomenon nowadays in the World of Azeroth. First it was blamed on the subpar design and itemization of AQ, but more and more voices suspect underlying fundemantal issues, such as an overboarding raid duty as you have pointed out.

The Core has solved this problem by basically eliminating MC altogether, unless some night happens where the lag in AQ40 is too bad to bother, and by getting more efficient with our BWL runs. There's enough loot dropping in BWL and AQ40 that we can skip the MC middleman. Someone new to the guild can just come along and pick up any loot that we would d/e anyway. Plus, those who want to raid more often or equip their alts can come on the optional AQ20 and ZG raids and get loot that's equal to or better than MC loot without burning out the guildmembers who don't want to raid as often.

At the same time, we've gotten our BWL runs down to 3 1/2 hours and have become more efficient about killing the early AQ40 bosses. So, we spend one evening clearing BWL, one evening killing the first four bosses in AQ40 (maybe the first five now -- we did that on Tuesday), and then we have the weekend to work on new AQ40 bosses. The other nights are officially off for the guild but those who want to raid more often can run AQ20 and ZG. (Sometimes we run those after the 40-man raids if we get done early enough). This gets everybody the loot they want, lets us have some time to work on new bosses, and at the same time doesn't cause raid burnout.

So what'll happen when Naxxramas comes out? Probably by then, we'll have gotten to the point where we can run all of AQ40 in one night. So, we'll be able to run BWL one night, AQ40 the next night, and then have the weekends to try out Naxxramas. Of course, by then, we'll have so much loot that we might not even need to run BWL anymore. Already some people are grumbling that we should skip BWL and put more quality time nailing down the Twin Emps in AQ40.

[oldmandennis]

Interesting - Do you have a few Thunderfurys already? Or is the low drop rate not worth it?

The Core has solved this problem by basically eliminating MC altogether, unless some night happens where the lag in AQ40 is too bad to bother, and by getting more efficient with our BWL runs.
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[MongoJerry]

Interesting - Do you have a few Thunderfurys already? Or is the low drop rate not worth it?
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Actually, we have no thunderfuries. We have three left sides of the Bindings of the Windseeker and none of the right. The drop rate isn't worth it and the new weapons in BWL and especially AQ40 have made them less important to get. We'd rather get past the Twin Emperors and get weapons for everybody. For the most part, we consider MC runs as an opportunity to get Nexus crystals and equip a few new characters or alts. Recently, we've let in a couple of non-guildies into the raids who are willing to pay 8-12 Nexus crystals for some of the tier 1 items that we would normally d/e. Those crystals are then randomed off at the end of the run so that people can then use them to enchant their gear with some of the newer enchants. Again, we only do this when for some reason we can't run AQ40, such as when the lag is awful (MC can be done in lag) or when for whatever reason we can't put together a solid "A-team" raid that night.

[Monkey]

The Core has solved this problem by basically eliminating MC altogether, unless some night happens where the lag in AQ40 is too bad to bother, and by getting more efficient with our BWL runs.  There's enough loot dropping in BWL and AQ40 that we can skip the MC middleman.  Someone new to the guild can just come along and pick up any loot that we would d/e anyway.  Plus, those who want to raid more often or equip their alts can come on the optional AQ20 and ZG raids and get loot that's equal to or better than MC loot without burning out the guildmembers who don't want to raid as often.
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How big is The Core? If your raid draws from a stable pool of around 60 people, then you can finish old content before burnout occurs. Casual-friendly raid guilds require more people to fill raids. This stretches the time to finish MC, creates burnout in the early 'hardcore' raiders, and results in turnover for the guild. If this process loops back fast enough, you get endless MC.

As for gear disparity, while Offense has outscaled Defense and that's bad, it's pretty stupid that Tier 2 or better equipped people are PvP'ing against 'green' 60s. Gear is supposed to be how you 'level' after 60. Blizzard doesn't put level 39s into a BG with 49s, so why are they doing it to 60s? My cynical, blackened heart thinks that it's to motivate people to get on the rat-race raiding treadmill. Getting smashed is the stick, and one-shotting someone is the carrot. Keep pushing on that feeder bar or else.

It's also possible that this came about through simple down-priority by Blizzard. They have something in mind to fix it, but Naxx is more important to them. Personally, though, I'll stick with the cynical view. Thinking about Blizzard choosing to prioritize 40-man over 5-man or balanced PvP makes me angry enough to go all ninja on Irvine. :shuriken: