+25 agility to 2H weapon

[Ynir]

Quote Quelsar:

Here ya go fellow enchanters:

Enchant 2H Weapon - Agility
Permanently enchant a two handed melee weapon to grant +25 Agility.

10x Large Brilliant Shard
6x Greater Eternal Essence
14x Illusion Dust
4x Essence of Air

Enchant from Timbermaws at friendly faction.

Yay!

[ima_nerd]

Wow, only friendly too. That is quite nice.

[Artega]

Quote Quelsar:
Enchant from Timbermaws at friendly faction.

Yay!
[right][snapback]103951[/snapback][/right]

Still won't beat twin +15's on one-handers for Hunters, though it'll hopefully break up Crusader's monopoly on the cookiecutter Arms Warriors' two-handers :)

[Ynir]

Spangles can't wait to replace the +15 str on her Barbarous Blade with +25 agi.

BB already has nice +AP. Besides, you can brag about %crit, but nobody cares about your AP. Rightly, or wrongly.

PS. It is really difficult to tell whether weapons for dual wield should be chanted +agi or +str. The answer is very gear-dependent and it is a problem to manage all the variables systematically. Switching enchants is not affordable.

Spangles has a Krol blade with +15 agi, and two Bone Slicing Hatchets. One hatchet is +agi, the other +str. She is switching hatchets to discern any difference, but can't at present. Another few hundred furbolg kills may tell.

What I really need are the equations that determine how agi, str, %crit, etc. contribute to the final index of killing power, whatever that is: DPS, or AP?

Are these equations known, or do I have to continue to feel out their effects emprically?

[Mirajj]

Still won't beat twin +15's on one-handers for Hunters, though it'll hopefully break up Crusader's monopoly on the cookiecutter Arms Warriors' two-handers :)
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Yep. I don't intend to switch up my current 1h combo for a 2h with this. But it sure is a nice enchant, and not that heavy/bad on the mats side.

[Concillian]

What I really need are the equations that determine how agi, str, %crit, etc. contribute to the final index of killing power, whatever that is: DPS, or AP?

Are these equations known, or do I have to continue to feel out their effects emprically?
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Well not for warriors, rage --> damage efficiency is different for different builds, and also depends on all of those factors. The formula is different for each gear setup and spec difference.

You can figure it out for your own character using the recap mod though. If you reset before grinding a few hundred mobs, It will break down % of damage from each type of attack and track DPS.

Then you can figure % of damage from white damage and % of damage from rage usage. At this point you have a baseline from which to compare changes. In your case, for fury, +hit / +crit / agility will contribute more to white damage (flurry) and STR will contribute more to rage damage (Bloodthirst)

You also have a DPS basis for white damage, which gives you something to work out your own particular value of crit and AP... this is a sliding scale for warriors, there are times where AP is better than crit and vice-versa, it depends on gear setup and build.

The only formulas that exist are very basic and only directly to white damage... once you throw crit% and flurry into the mix that starts to get complicated. Then add damage you get from rage usage and things get very complicated.

Even a straight rage to damage formula is pretty complex. I mean Hamstring is a pretty straight rage to damage formula, but what if you crit on a hamstring and proc flurry... then your hamstring effectively added some portion of damage on top of what you have. Then what if you crit right after that... well you just cut short 66% of the bonus you would have gotten from flurry... how do you put a formula to that?

Even flurry itself will add different values for a full flurry depending on if you crit with the offhand (getting 2 main hand attacks and 1 offhand) vs. the main hand (getting 2 offhand attacks and 1 main hand).

There are just too many statistical distributions to account for to put it into some grand formula without a starting point from empirical data. If you aren't using 'recap' or 'combatstats' I would HIGHLY suggest getting a mod like one of those, as it takes some of the 'feel' out of evaluating different gear selections, as well as giving a basis for experiments in determining which way you should head in your stats.

[Ynir]

  There are just too many statistical distributions to account for to put it into some grand formula without a starting point from empirical data.  If you aren't using 'recap' or 'combatstats' I would HIGHLY suggest getting a mod like one of those, as it takes some of the 'feel' out of evaluating different gear selections, as well as giving a basis for experiments in determining which way you should head in your stats.
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This is what I expected.

I do have a mod that tracks damage in/damage out, and a lot of other events. I think it came with CTMod, but have not yet figured out how to use it. I will dl the mods you mentioned and make some effort to learn them.

I also have a simple mod that consists only of two numbers: DPS taken (red) and DPS inflicted (green). My eyes are glued to this display in fights, but I cannot remember details, only general trends.

What I really would like is a mod that would store these numbers (DPS vs time, white and yellow) in arrays that I could print to disk. I don't have the skills to write such a tool, or even to decide whether it is feasible.

[Artega]

Spangles can't wait to replace the +15 str on her Barbarous Blade with +25 agi.

BB already has nice +AP. Besides, you can brag about %crit, but nobody cares about your AP. Rightly, or wrongly.

PS. It is really difficult to tell whether weapons for dual wield should be chanted +agi or +str. The answer is very gear-dependent and it is a problem to manage all the variables systematically. Switching enchants is not affordable.

Spangles has a Krol blade with +15 agi, and two Bone Slicing Hatchets. One hatchet is +agi, the other +str. She is switching hatchets to discern any difference, but can't at present. Another few hundred furbolg kills may tell.

What I really need are the equations that determine how agi, str, %crit, etc. contribute to the final index of killing power, whatever that is: DPS, or AP?

Are these equations known, or do I have to continue to feel out their effects emprically?
[right][snapback]103963[/snapback][/right]

I believe someone did a crapton of math and came out with a point where it's generally better to go with STR over AGI for Fury builds, but I can't remember if it was one of the DW specs, fast 2H, slow 2H or something else entirely - Rishana's guides may have information pertaining to fast DW (since she and her buddy Xyshina seem to be enamored of it, even though I quite frankly think it's crap compared to the tried-and-true slow-main/fast-off) and possibly the other two types of DW.

From what little I can recall, I believe it was something like 20% crit for Dualling, 25% for Two-Handing, and after that, STR becomes superior to AGI.

For me, I've always preferred small amounts of AGI over small amounts of STR (e.g. I'd rather have +7 AGI versus +7 STR), while I'll take large amounts of STR over large amounts of AGI.

[Monkey]

I believe someone did a crapton of math and came out with a point where it's generally better to go with STR over AGI for Fury builds, but I can't remember if it was one of the DW specs, fast 2H, slow 2H or something else entirely - Rishana's guides may have information pertaining to fast DW (since she and her buddy Xyshina seem to be enamored of it, even though I quite frankly think it's crap compared to the tried-and-true slow-main/fast-off) and possibly the other two types of DW.

From what little I can recall, I believe it was something like 20% crit for Dualling, 25% for Two-Handing, and after that, STR becomes superior to AGI.

For me, I've always preferred small amounts of AGI over small amounts of STR (e.g. I'd rather have +7 AGI versus +7 STR), while I'll take large amounts of STR over large amounts of AGI.
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My warrior is a fast-main/fast-off DW build. I'm running with Eskhander's Right Claw* in my main hand and Lobotomizer in my offhand (hoping to upgrade my offhand to a Core Hound Tooth soon).

For a long time, I generally preferred attack power because my bread-and-butter DPS ability is bloodthirst, which does damage based on attack power. But as my DPS has gone up, I've begun to look to crit instead. Here's the way I look at it:

7 Strength = 14 AP = 1 DPS :: 10 Strength = 20 AP ~1.5 DPS
10 Agility = 0.5% crit ~1% DPS

Because Flurry currently applies to hits and not just swings, it essentially gives you 2 extra hits when you crit, so 1/2% crit is about 1% DPS. Of course, this will change in 1.10, and there are some flaws in this math because of the hit penalty on DW, but I try to stack up +hit gear to compensate.

If you accept the above math (and don't sweat the 1.10 changes yet), Strength is a better than Agility on a 1:1 basis as long as your DPS is below 150. Above 150DPS, agility is better 1:1 than strength for a warrior with 3/3 Flurry.

Hope that helps!


*The proc from The Claw actually stacks with flurry and when it does, my MH attack speed goes way up. I haven't measured it, but I'd guess that I'm swinging at 0.6 speed. Using that rig with 3 pieces of Black Dragonscale and assorted blues, I've been hitting top ten and top five on my guild's damage meter in MC. Strangely, the real tanks think it's great while the rogues are hassling me to go back to wearing +def plate and to stop using daggers. ;)

[Concillian]

7 Strength = 14 AP = 1 DPS :: 10 Strength = 20 AP ~1.5 DPS
10 Agility = 0.5% crit ~1% DPS

Because Flurry currently applies to hits and not just swings, it essentially gives you  2 extra hits when you crit, so 1/2% crit is about 1% DPS. Of course, this will change in 1.10, and there are some flaws in this math because of the hit penalty on DW, but I try to stack up +hit gear to compensate.

If you accept the above math (and don't sweat the 1.10 changes yet), Strength is a better than Agility on a 1:1 basis as long as your DPS is below 150. Above 150DPS, agility is better 1:1 than strength for a warrior with 3/3 Flurry.
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It's more complex than that. Actual DPS gain from STR is more than the flat gain from AP. Your AP is applied on instants and with Bloodthirst. It can be anywhere from 1x to over 2x that gain depending on the build and what you're fighting (Damage reduction from armor). Also, your measured DPS takes into account damage reduction from armor, but the AP calc does not. You're not comparing apples to apples in this comparison.

Consider one build with 1% higher crit than the other but the other has 20 higher AP. The one with 1% crit will get 1% more flurries (and flurry is 30% increase for 3 swings, so ~0.9 extra attacks, not 2 extra attacks, and you have to varieties of flurry bonuses, one which gives bonus to 2 off-hands and 1 main hand, and one which gives 2 main hands and 1 off-hand), the one with less crit will get fewer flurries, but each time flurry procs anyway, they are doing more damage. Each benefit has advantages and each has disadvantages.

Also, the extra % crit will increase the likelihood that you will cut short your own flurry (2 crits in a row effectively negate the flurry bonus from one of your crits), so the high AP gearset will get more complete flurries. Thus there is a factor to the extra crit that will effectively decrease your increase in damage.

+1% crit is not +1% damage either, even on white damage. Consider a 25% crit rate....

100 swings, 75 hits and 25 crits...
total damage: 125 * whatever the average swing damage is

100 swings, 74 hits and 26 crits...
total damage: 126 whatever the average swing damage is
126 / 125 = 1.008 (0.8% increase, not 1%)

Also, if you have deep wounds in your build, that one skill highly favors AP in a dual weild scenario, where crit per unit time is more important than crit % chance. Each crit resets the timer so the Deep wounds won't tick until 3 seconds beyond the time you crit. If you often crit once, then crit again 2 seconds later, your first deep wounds gave 0 extra damage, because it never had a chance to tick, and the second one will wait another 3 seconds to tick damage. A high crit chance with fast weapons will rarely even see a tick from deep wounds, because you're always resetting the timer.

There will be a "right" balance of the two numbers, but it's impossible to determine this balance with such simple math. Warrior DPS is not a simple equation. The only way you can say that DPS gain from X AP = DPS gain from Y% crit is through empirical means, then reverse-engineering the equation from that empirical data. "Forward-engineering" the equation involves too much speculation on what each hit will do.

The statistical variation of hits and crits is difficult to model. Especially in a DW flurry build where you have different amounts of damage bonus depending on which weapon crits. You have an off-hand that crits more often than main hand, which means you'll have more 2-main hand / 1 offhand flurry bonuses than 2 off-hand / 1 main hand flurry bonuses. Does this mean that it's better to have a slow main hand and fast off hand than two fast weapons? I have no freaking idea. I also have no idea how to approach modeling that mathematically without at least some data as a starting point.

It's one of those things where the more you know about it, the more you realize you don't know about it.

[Ynir]

The proc from The Claw actually stacks with flurry and when it does, my MH attack speed goes way up. I haven't measured it, but I'd guess that I'm swinging at 0.6 speed. Using that rig with 3 pieces of Black Dragonscale and assorted blues, I've been hitting top ten and top five on my guild's damage meter in MC.  Strangely, the real tanks think it's great while the rogues are hassling me to go back to wearing +def plate and to stop using daggers. ;)
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Black Dragonscale armor? Hunter gear on an end-game warrior? How very original. Just the plan to induce Spangles to blow her mount money on new clothes. Spangles really likes using daggers, and fist weapons. I will model the dragonscale gear on her CTprofile.

My first question is, obviously, how do you compensate for the 1/3 to 1/2 AC reduction from conventional plate?

[Tal]

My first question is, obviously, how do you compensate for the 1/3 to 1/2 AC reduction from conventional plate?
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Don't draw aggro?

[Ynir]

Here are two weapons that I consider "blue epics": pieces that, if the damage were just a little higher, the mods would be worthy of epic status.

Dreadforge Retaliator (BRD)
2H axe
149 - 225 damage speed 3.70 50.5 dps
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
equip: +30 attack power.

Frenzied Striker (Plaguelands)
2H polearm
108 - 162 damage speed 2.80 48.2 dps
equip: increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.
equip: improves your chance to hit by 2%.

I can hardly wait to chant these +25 agi, although +15 str might be more appropriate.

[Ynir]

Don't draw aggro?
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Well, ya. Stay in Ironforge.

I just discovered CTProfiles.net the other day, and entered in Spangles' stats.

http://ctprofiles.net/65252

Switching to equip the three Dragonscale pieces, everything else constant:

(This is fun, like playing with paper dolls. I was never willing to enable a "character reader") :ph34r:

Main configuration -> Lame Rogue
HP: 4309 -> 4049 (-6%)
AC: 4279 -> 3596 (-16%)
+crit: 23.1% -> 22.6% (-2%)
AP: 666 -> 738 (+10%)

Hmm. I read that this armor looks absolutely smashing. Spangles will model some links and report.

[Ynir]

My warrior is a fast-main/fast-off DW build. I'm running with Eskhander's Right Claw* in my main hand and Lobotomizer in my offhand (hoping to upgrade my offhand to a Core Hound Tooth soon)....

Using that rig with 3 pieces of Black Dragonscale and assorted blues, I've been hitting top ten and top five on my guild's damage meter in MC.  Strangely, the real tanks think it's great while the rogues are hassling me to go back to wearing +def plate and to stop using daggers. ;)
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Spangles recognizes a nice bit of outside-the-box thinking when she sees it.

She scratched around for 200g in mats (mostly black dragonscales) and engaged her leatherworker colleagues to make Black Dragonscale shoulders, chest and legs. The results of her experiments are summarized in the "Farmer" profile:

http://ctprofiles.net/78887

Spangles makes a living farming Winterfall furbolg for runecloth. Killing quickly is of the essence when competition is fierce. The shoulders, chest and legs provide over 1100 AP buffed. This configuration enables Spangles to demolish a single furbolg in 10 seconds or less.

The mechanics of a very short fight are implemented carefully, because the low AC/HP of the "Farmer" profile leave little room for error:

(1) Target, then Bloodrage, Battle Shout, Berserker Rage, Intercept.

(2) Hamstring or Sunder during the stun interval to jumpstart rage generation. Demoralizing Shout.

(3) Do nothing whatever, let the game play itself until Bloodthirst lights up.

(4) Do nothing whatever, let the game play itself until Bloodthirst or Execute light up.

(5) The only useful option is one pummel to a Shaman to prevent health regeneration.

Bloodthirst and Flurry do the work, micromanaging just prolongs the fight. A short fight is 6 seconds, average is 12, a long fight is 20 seconds. The DPS meter ramps from 80 at the beginning to 250 at the end. A short fight consumes 15% - 20% of 4100 HP. 600 HP is the minimum required to survive a single encounter.

The only cause of dying is forgetting to bandage between fights. There is no excuse for this. Runecloth drops so copiously that the cost of bandages is below the limit of error.

If an Ursa adds to a Shaman, fear the Ursa when the Shaman is one blow from dying. Bandage before the Ursa gets back. Two Ursa are taken down serially without bandaging. Two Shaman require full health at the start to survive ranged attacks from the add.

Spangles seems to be the only character on the server that cannot solo Chief Winterfall and his two adds. She can take on any two, but three are not survivable without health potions, which are unaffordable.

[Monkey]

It's one of those things where the more you know about it, the more you realize you don't know about it.

If only I had a nickel for every that was true...I could hire someone to do some better analysis than mine! Just to clarify one point, though, Concillian, I wasn't comparing measured to theoretical DPS there; I was using the 14 AP = 1DPS equation from WoWwiki.

Tal's assertion about don't-draw-aggro is correct; I use the BDS gear in place of other green and blue resist gear in MC where it's possible for me to avoid taking damage by having high resist and staying off the heroic strike button (using slam and bloodthirst instead).

Outside of MC, I use more plate based on the amount of damage I think I'll be taking. When I solo Tyr's, I wear Kromcrush's BP. Soloing regular mobs, I get out the Cadaverous Armor. I'll port over to Winterspring this weekend and check out Chief Winterfall; I haven't tried to solo him in a while. Does Spangles have Engineering?

Chest pieces I have:

Cadaverous Chest (Scholomance)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20252

Deathdealer Brestplate (BRD)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=6902

Kromcrush's Chestplate (DM North)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=35754

I just have valor for plate legs:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20624

For shoulders, I have valor but usually wear:
Bloodsoaked Pauldrons (ZG)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51155


Some other pieces of note:

Grimy Metal Boots (Dire Maul North)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=35872

Fury Visor (Warrior Quest)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52018

Bloodvine Lens (for PvP)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51099

Battleborn Armbraces (UBRS)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=13198

From my understanding of dual wield mechanics, +hit is a very valuable statistic. The game rolls for critical before it rolls for hit/miss; that is to say, you can have a critical miss. Dual Wield gets hit with a heavy hit penalty, so many of your crits won't even land. I used the Gauntlets of Accuracy (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=35744) until I got Might.

Also, I don't have them, but these look great:
Truestrike Shoulders (UBRS)
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=15463

Hope this helps, and I'll report back later with my investigations from Winterspring.

[Mavfin]

[snip]

If an Ursa adds to a Shaman, fear the Ursa when the Shaman is one blow from dying. Bandage before the Ursa gets back. Two Ursa are taken down serially without bandaging. Two Shaman require full health at the start to survive ranged attacks from the add.

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I don't understand how a 60 *fury* warrior can have trouble (as in have to bandage between) with two Winterfalls (Shaman/Shaman, or Shaman/Ursa), when my 60 *protection* warrior laughs at them and kills them as fast as you do. Just seemed strange to me.

[Kevin]

I don't understand how a 60 *fury* warrior can have trouble (as in have to bandage between) with two Winterfalls (Shaman/Shaman, or Shaman/Ursa), when my 60 *protection* warrior laughs at them and kills them as fast as you do.  Just seemed strange to me.
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Unless I'm mistaken Spangles doesn't have anything but scholo/strat/ubrs gear. You have MC/BWL weapons and gear, even if it isn't DPS focused. 8 to 11 dps more per weapon even without talent backing is a big deal. The mitigation of your armor is much better too.

Gear is huge for warriors. Even prot warriors with good gear can out DPS non prot warriors that don't have tons of epics.

[Lissa]

Quote Quelsar:
Enchant from Timbermaws at friendly faction.

Yay!
[right][snapback]103951[/snapback][/right]

I have this enchant learned in the time SR was up... :w00t:

Come see me if you want it when I get back with Tahapenes.

[Mavfin]

Unless I'm mistaken Spangles doesn't have anything but scholo/strat/ubrs gear.  You have MC/BWL weapons and gear, even if it isn't DPS focused.  8 to 11 dps more per weapon even without talent backing is a big deal.  The mitigation of your armor is much better too.

Gear is huge for warriors.  Even prot warriors with good gear can out DPS non prot warriors that don't have tons of epics.
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I saw Gaunts of MIght, and some other purple stuff on the ctprofile :D