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...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Bob the Beholder - 04-06-2005
Bolty,Apr 6 2005, 09:37 PM Wrote:Ugh, yes. I was a victim of my months of experience on the PvP beta server. Outside Dire Maul was a huge conglomerate of Horde and Alliance players, and my foolish assumption was that the moment I started off some PvP, it would turn into a huge battle royale, as it would on a PvP server as players of both sides stare each other down until someone fires first (kinda like nuclear war in that).
Quite the opposite. I flagged PvP, taunted a Horde hunter, and engaged him when he answered my challenge, much to my delight - only to be torn to shreds by 5 more Horde without anyone trying to help.
-Bolty
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The situation you describe is likely even worse on a PvE server than it is on a PvP server, both in the apathetic allies and the blood thirsty enemies. Sure, people gank on pvp servers. But it's a constant thing. You get used to it, you learn ways to avoid it, you keep an escape route open, etc. (success still not guaranteed, obviously).
But on a pve server, if you're flagged, this is likely something that is new and uncommon to the enemy players--it's a sudden, "Whoah! I can attack that guy!" feeling, and seeing as it's not something that happens constantly, he's more likely to go through with it. Just a chance for some pve-player to turn around and go, "I R LEET PVP MAN," when it's just nothing to bother about for pvp servers.
Myself, I mostly play on pvp servers (Gorefiend is my main server right now). I don't even notice when I'm flagged anymore. All that fight-run-or-die is just an every day part of the game for me. (Except for the barren, enemy-less, annoying places, like Thousand Needles, where the only alliance players hanging around are at least 45 and just trying to be dicks.)
And there is that sense of camraderie that Mongo talks about. Recently I've been playing a bit of Stormrage, and it's just been annoying how stupidly lone-wolf people have been playing. People just go, "I don't have to rely on you for anything. Feel free to trip on a pekingese and hit your head on a pointy rock." Because, at low leve, outside of instances, there's no reason not to. The prospect of being overwhelmed by an implacable enemy kinda gets people trying to stay on eachother's good sides, you know? (Which is not to say that there aren't any assholes on pvp servers--there are plenty. But a lot of them will recognize that having people who don't hate you around is still pretty useful.)
Then, of course, there are the stupid people. Yes, I play pvp. Yes, I enjoy it, a lot of times. But the people who have decided that the only reason to play on a pvp server is to find and kill other players (one reason, okay. Only one? Nuh-uh.) just make me want to beat them in the head. (Example: I have a level 15 character. Some dwarf comes up and takes the peacebloom I was going for! That bastard! I complain. Immediate response from several people, even though I mentioned the dwarf being thirty levels higher than me: "then kill um." ... uuhhh, thanks for the sage advice there.)
Gyah, that got kinda rambly.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Boutros - 04-06-2005
Just the other day I logged in to find myself in Azshara with Azuregos repeatedly shouting various things, indicating someone was fighting him. Eventually I managed to find him, and there was a huge battle between Horde and Alliance going on. It was kind of laggy with all those people in one place, but eventually the Horde overwhelemed the Alliance who were there first and Horde got the tap on the dragon. We worked on the dragon and killed Alliance stragglers for a while when a huge force of Alliance sweeps in... crashing the server and causing the dragon to despawn.
But still, despite the lag and server crash I had lots of fun. This sort of thing would never happen on a PvE server, the group with the tap would never tag themselves for PvP, so the other faction could do nothing but stand around and watch their enemies slay the dragon.
Really, being able to tolerate a PvP server is all about mindset. I got ganked every once in a while on my way up, but I don't let it bother me. The way I think about it, I only lost a little bit of time and I can call on some other players to help scare the punk off, and if not then someday I'll probably be able to repay the jerk in kind (and actually, I've managed to get revenge on a fair number of people who made my death list).
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - savaughn - 04-06-2005
Skandranon,Apr 6 2005, 11:36 AM Wrote:I don't disagree with your point. I think the PvP community is probably closer knit, but I don't think it's because the server changes the dynamic. People who want PvP and who are inclined to that sense of unity head to PvP servers, while people who are generally apathetic to PvP head to PvE servers.I don't think it's a case of the people being different when they start - I think it's an issue of being trained. When people pick a PvP server, most people I see out there aren't hard core gamers and aren't sure what they're getting into. They see a horde or two on their way to 20, but at that point they haven't had the experience of being flagged PvP much.
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Then the 20's hit. You walk through Duskwood and get crushed by a group of four horde waiting at the crossroads. You get upset. You walk through the Wetlands and someone unstealths behind you and ends your trip. You head up to Hillsbrad or STM and a group of Alliance see you and drop you. You discover PvP.
So you die. :( A lot. :angry: Sometimes four or five times in a row and sometimes it gets frustrating. And then you find yourself in Hillsbrad and you know there's a rogue out there who's six levels over you and someone from your side walks by doing the same quest and you team up and kill the rogue. And you smile. :blush: Or the Horde runs an attack against Darkshire and you and a pack of six or seven others team up and knock down a party of folks ten levels higher than you. And you break out in a grin. :P
On a PvP server, you have the experience of being lost and alone and dying for it. And you get the experience of having someone come along and save you. And that becomes an immediate and powerful lesson about forming bonds and working with your side to ensure your survival. The challenges on a PvP server are harder, the risks and stakes higher, and the emotional rewards similarly higher.
And sometimes you meet an opposing side person in the field and you dance with them anyway. PvP servers are chaos. If you can deal with that chaos, the experience is vastly more powerful. PvP servers kick a$$. :D
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Bob the Beholder - 04-07-2005
savaughn,Apr 6 2005, 11:43 PM Wrote:And sometimes you meet an opposing side person in the field and you dance with them anyway. PvP servers are chaos. If you can deal with that chaos, the experience is vastly more powerful. PvP servers kick a$$. :D
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Heh, yeah. Just a few minutes ago my level 25 warrior running through Ashenvale literally ran straight into at least five night elves while trying to escape from two that kept ganking me. It was not cool that my questing was interrupted, and not cool that I really couldn't fight back. But the part where I was sitting here going, "Ocrapocrapocrapocrap gotta run run RUN run run oooohhh... crap AAAAH IT'S ANOTHER ONE", etc. was kind of awesome, afterwards. Literally ended up running cross-country half way across the Ashenvale map with a huge pile of night elves behind me. And one dwarf.
Eventually one of them started chain-casting Entangling Roots... they all surrounded me... and started dancing.
After a minute they waved, saluted and left.
It didn't accomplish anything, and there was no real point to it. But it certainly gave me a laugh, and if that's not worth the wasted time, then nothing is.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - MongoJerry - 04-07-2005
Bolty,Apr 6 2005, 02:37 PM Wrote:I like PvP. I liked the PvP server more than the PvE server, it's a lot more fun. But it's the ganking I just can't handle. If PvP ever implements a dishonor system to stop level 60's from nuking my level 20ish char over and over, I'm there in a heartbeat.
Then get a character above level 40 on a PvP server. I think that level 20-40 range is the real hump that one has to get over. You have neither the power nor the mobility to deal well with attempted gankers, and the world available to explore is small. But after 40, you're no longer the easy prey that the real assholes go for, you have a mount, and the area to explore is much larger. You're no longer ganking fodder at that point, and everything you're going to see after that is PvP fighting.
I think it would help to have you play as a Horde player, because you wouldn't have the comfy blanket of Redridge, Darkshire, and the Wetlands. One of the problems you experienced with PvP was that you only ever experienced ganking, because you rarely played in areas populated by opposing players of your level. On the other hand, the northern area of 1k Needles is the only contested zone that Horde has all to itself questwise. I think you'd get the chance to experience the fun of PvP servers sooner this way. In addition, I think the Horde community is tighter when it comes to helping out lower level players because of this phenomenon. It also probably helps to have the central Horde city of Orgrimmar so close to Ashenvale and Stonetalon.
Start up a character on Tichondrius. I might even start up that hunter alt I've been thinking of making to party with you. Give it a try. I think you'll really have fun with it.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Phoenix - 04-07-2005
MongoJerry,Apr 7 2005, 06:22 AM Wrote:Then get a character above level 40 on a PvP server. I think that level 20-40 range is the real hump that one has to get over. You have neither the power nor the mobility to deal well with attempted gankers, and the world available to explore is small. But after 40, you're no longer the easy prey that the real assholes go for, you have a mount, and the area to explore is much larger. You're no longer ganking fodder at that point, and everything you're going to see after that is PvP fighting.
I'm curious why you think that. There is nothing magical about level 40 that suddenly stops the ganking. Horde still swarms me as soon as they see me, and every other level ?? I see gladly chases me for several minutes just to kill me. I don't call it PvP fighting when I'm fighting two-three Horde, all much higher level than me. I call it ganking. Mount is no good, they have mount too. And they frequently have Mithril Spurs, Carrot on a Stick and all that so they can catch me most of the time. No contested area is safe from ganking and it never will be, even at level 60.
MongoJerry,Apr 7 2005, 06:22 AM Wrote:I think it would help to have you play as a Horde player, because you wouldn't have the comfy blanket of Redridge, Darkshire, and the Wetlands.
I frequently hear these three areas mentioned as a plus for Alliance, which baffles me. When you're Alliance, once you reach level 20 you're screwed because every area you would want to go to after that is contested and there you're prime meat for any and all Horde gankers who feel like messing up your day. From there on out it only gets worse.
But Horde can stay in Barrens till level 25 without any risk of Alliance gankers, and after that they have Stonetalon and Thousand Needles with is just as "comfy blanket" as Wetlands or Duskwood, and brings you to a higher level than any of those areas.
And if you want to gank, Horde has it easier too. Redridge is filled with level 15s to 18s or so running around, just waiting for a nice Horde-gank. There's plenty of victims in Duskwood too, somewhere around level 22-26.
But for Alliance you have to check Stonetalon or Ashenvale and see if there is any Horde foolish enough to not stay in the Barrens. And as you said, Orgrimmar is so close to both those areas, and reinforcements could be coming at any time.
And slightly off-topic, Horde also has two instance dungeons (Ragefire and Wailing) where they can find some nice drops and quest rewards while Alliance has one (Deadmines).
In short, while I hear so many Horde players going on and on about how Alliance is "easy-mode", it's my opinion that Horde has it a lot better.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Boutros - 04-07-2005
Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 12:28 AM Wrote:I'm curious why you think that. There is nothing magical about level 40 that suddenly stops the ganking. Horde still swarms me as soon as they see me, and every other level ?? I see gladly chases me for several minutes just to kill me. I don't call it PvP fighting when I'm fighting two-three Horde, all much higher level than me. I call it ganking. Mount is no good, they have mount too. And they frequently have Mithril Spurs, Carrot on a Stick and all that so they can catch me most of the time.Getting a mount made a huge difference in how often I was ganked. Getting jumped while fighting a monster still happens, but getting ganked while traveling is cut down, as it's just too much work to run someone down and dismount them, even with carrot and spurs. And hell, you could get spurs for about 50s and a carrot isn't too tough to get, there's hardly any reason not to carry them with you.
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Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 12:28 AM Wrote:I frequently hear these three areas mentioned as a plus for Alliance, which baffles me. When you're Alliance, once you reach level 20 you're screwed because every area you would want to go to after that is contested and there you're prime meat for any and all Horde gankers who feel like messing up your day. From there on out it only gets worse.Alliance get 3 20-30 zones that are effectively uncontested, no Horde flight points. Horde gets Thousand Needles, but the 30-35 area (shimmering flats) is highly contested due to the presence of Gadgezan nearby. And the 20-25 content for the barrens is pretty sparse, horde characters have pretty much no choice but to go to Stonetalon, Ashenvale, or (god forbid) Hillsbrad for these levels, all zones that at least have alliance flight points. Even Stonetalon, which has only a minor alliance outpost is pretty well contested, especially in the charred vale, and Sun Rock is a favorite locale for Alliance raids on Tich.
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Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 12:28 AM Wrote:And if you want to gank, Horde has it easier too. Redridge is filled with level 15s to 18s or so running around, just waiting for a nice Horde-gank. There's plenty of victims in Duskwood too, somewhere around level 22-26.Hillsbrad. And Duskwood, Wetlands, and Redridge are far away from major Alliance cities? You could have fooled me. I don't think ease of finding ganking targets is any sort of issue. It's super easy for both sides, and reinforcements are always close by.
But for Alliance you have to check Stonetalon or Ashenvale and see if there is any Horde foolish enough to not stay in the Barrens. And as you said, Orgrimmar is so close to both those areas, and reinforcements could be coming at any time.
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Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 12:28 AM Wrote:And slightly off-topic, Horde also has two instance dungeons (Ragefire and Wailing) where they can find some nice drops and quest rewards while Alliance has one (Deadmines).I'd say that WC and Deadmines cancel each other out, and while Stockades might not be very impressive, neither is RFC. And since RFC is so low level any gear you get out of it will basically be replaced with a day or two.
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I'm not one to say that Alliance = Easy Mode. But I don't think Horde have significant advantages in the ways you suggest either. The grass may always be greener on the other side, but I think that having 3 20-30 zones with no Horde outposts and not having to endure the Hillsbrad experience gives the Alliance a slight advantage in ease of leveling.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Bolty - 04-07-2005
MongoJerry,Apr 6 2005, 11:22 PM Wrote:Then get a character above level 40 on a PvP server.[right][snapback]73276[/snapback][/right]You forgot that I had a level 47 PvP Warlock in beta, didn't you?
No, it doesn't end after 40. Yes, the random I'm-just-trying-to-run-down-this-road-so-please-leave-me-alone-but-I-know-you-won't-because-you're-an-asshat-who-is-20-levels-above-me gankings stop, but the stupid PvP remains.
Best example I always quote was an Uldaman party I was in clearing out the pre-instance stuff. We encounter another party of 5 Horde in one of the chambers filled with mobs. PvP here would be *completely* pointless - no one would win, and both parties would get annihilated.
So of course, the rogue in my party attacks the other group. 30 seconds later, we're all dead. Every last one of us, since in the battle royale many of the mobs got woken up and trained on any survivors. Sure, my party "won," in that the Horde players died first, but the two of us left were mopped up by about 6 NPCs. Everybody then corpse runs, and 3 minutes later we're staring at each other again. Lesson learned? Nope. Horde attacks. Everyone dies again.
In the end, 10 players basically lose about an hour of their lives in a pointless endeavor when they could have simply left each other alone. As a result, we didn't have the time to run the instance that night.
With the honor system coming in, that might have all had a point - after all, we would have scored honor, if not gotten quests done - but with the honor system going in, these encounters will be actually encouraged now. Sometimes I just want to get some quests done, you know?
So in the end I lose out - I have to live with the "PvP-lite" you accurately described, because PvP on the PvE servers is most definitely second-rate. Example on Stormrage: grouping for a Sunken Temple run, we were waiting around for a 5th player. I, enjoying the PvP experience, run down to Stonard and smack around some guards to flag myself.
A minute or two goes by when a level 50-something Horde Warrior comes along, unflagged. In a PvP environment, I could have smacked him down - but due to the PvP-lite rules, he got to stand there, unflagged, and wait - for his buddies to come along, including two level 60's.
Our Lurker group made up of early 50-somethings, all flagged, are forced to stand there while they get organized and prepare for attack. So of course they all target me (the healer), a 60 rogue we didn't see unstealths and attacks, and I'm dead in 10 seconds. They then mop up the rest of us without difficulty, and think they're hot stuff for winning. Not real PvP. Real PvP would have the Horde flagging themselves as they approached us instead of standing around waiting to make the perfect first strike.
Mongo, you and I have always agreed that PvP servers are better - we just differ massively on the one key point, the ganking. You are able to put up with being engaged by other players you have absolutely no chance of defeating whatsoever. I am less willing to have my time wasted by jerks.
When the honor system is rolled out, there will be a significant increase in the PvP activity on PvE servers, and I'll see how that plays out.
-Bolty
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Cyath - 04-07-2005
Wow it looks like I really started a semi-avalanche of replies here...^_^
After reading all the responses, I have to say that I think savaughn's post really hit the nail on the head for me. PvP comes in all shapes and sizes, really. There's ganking, which sucks, no bones about it. There is griefing and corpse camping, which really REALLY sucks. There are times when you want help and no one's around, when you just wanna finish a quest and log off and some 60 just feels like ruining your day and there's nothing you can do about it.
But there is also fighting back. There are mass raids, both defensive and offensive. There are intense, seat-of-your-pants duels in which you're constantly trying to outguess the other, you're wondering "OMG what is gonna do I better ready my escape button or maybe pop a potion but his life is at half and he just used..." - you can't get that when you fight a mob. There is helping others and being helped by others.
And there is also strangely cooperation. Sometimes you meet an opposing faction member and for no reason just /dance with each other. Sometimes they even *help you quest* - happened once in Arathi Highlands, a dwarf pally and I shared the mobs, and drew aggro off each other and bowed at the end. Sometimes it's just a temporary ceasefire where each side decides not to fight because it's just no expedient. And sometimes you actually get your ass saved by the opposing side...was fighting Bhag'thera solo (yeah I like living dangerously), I'm gonna die, running away and suddenly a dwarf paladin, level 60, dismounts. I'm like ok I'm dead twice as much now. But what does he do? Hammer of Justices the elite and I run off. I wanna bow but I can't before the stun runs off.
Sometimes I even return the favor. ^_^
Ok didn't mean to go on for so long...
Most of what else I want to say Mongo has already expressed more eloquently, so I won't go into that. But about the issue of ganking...you will be ganked, that's the bottom line. But "ganking" doesn't really stop there. There is dying in a good place so it's easier to continue your journey. There is noting the enemy's level so you can report better info - and there is figuring out his possible spec and fighting style so when you /3. Local Defense you can help when you DO res. In a PvP server it's never just really one on one (except sometimes when you are in a truly out of the way godforsaken area when no one is on) - it's faction versus faction, Alliance versus Horde.
At a very basic level you can even play harder to gank classes...like Rogues who have sprint, or even better Priests/Warlocks who have fear. And you can play on times when the Alliance/Horde pop is low. But I think that ganking generally isn't just a one-sided slaughter, IMHO at least.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Olon97 - 04-07-2005
I've been ganked roughly 5 times since my Warrior reached 40 (several months ago), and my 35 Shaman was ganked about 3 times up to that point. I don't do "wave negotiations", I just keep my distance and position myself so it's obvious I know they are around but don't feel like fighting (i.e. I stop, face them, face away and continue my grinding). I have also had some reasonably fair fights that I lost due to differential in player skill, but those are both fun and learning experiences.
Granted, I don't go certain places at certain hours that are bad by reputation (never quested in TM).
My point is, if you so dislike the ganking aspect of PvP play, it can be minimized. Also helps to play a female toon with helmet hidden. There are still a lot of sexist folks out there who have an easier time murdering a male character in cold blood with no chance of self defence than a murdering a woman character the same way, despite both just being a bunch of pixels. ;)
I think ultimately what reduces my gank downtime is not caring either way. If 5 skull con Alliance toons descend on me, I just sit down or target myself and /mourn - most of the time I get passed by. At one point in my 30s I was trying to grind in some 60 mage's mining harvesting spot, and got repeatedly killed (graveyard was about 45 seconds away) - I made a macro just for him - targetting him, dancing with him, licking him, and lying down - at least it made the further ganks more entertaining for both of us.
One last thought on PvP servers and ganking. Pople have long memories (and sometimes UI mods to enhance that memory). If you've been getting your "revenge" by ganking the other side, don't be shocked if those level 22 toons were alts and the player's level 60 main kills you on sight later on regardless of your level. As servers mature, the smart gankers start being aware of the "60 main or guild friends retaliating disproportionately" phenomenon and stick to the weak, more clueless looking unguilded toons.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Phoenix - 04-07-2005
Boutros,Apr 7 2005, 12:14 PM Wrote:Getting a mount made a huge difference in how often I was ganked. Getting jumped while fighting a monster still happens, but getting ganked while traveling is cut down, as it's just too much work to run someone down and dismount them, even with carrot and spurs. And hell, you could get spurs for about 50s and a carrot isn't too tough to get, there's hardly any reason not to carry them with you.
I still need a rank 245 blacksmith to apply it, and I need them to do it everytime I change my boots. And carrot is tough enough, I need to be able to kill Gahz'rilla, something my level 45 rogue can't do just like that. *snaps fingers* At least for me, a mount hasn't made any difference at all.
Boutros Wrote:Alliance get 3 20-30 zones that are effectively uncontested, no Horde flight points. Horde gets Thousand Needles, but the 30-35 area (shimmering flats) is highly contested due to the presence of Gadgezan nearby. And the 20-25 content for the barrens is pretty sparse, horde characters have pretty much no choice but to go to Stonetalon, Ashenvale, or (god forbid) Hillsbrad for these levels, all zones that at least have alliance flight points. Even Stonetalon, which has only a minor alliance outpost is pretty well contested, especially in the charred vale, and Sun Rock is a favorite locale for Alliance raids on Tich.There's nothing uncontested about Wetlands, Duskwood or Redridge, considering how often Horde goes there to gank. And even if 20-25 on Barrens is sparse, at least you have something. Once Alliance reaches 20 it's Gank City time. Redridge isn't 20-30 by the way, it's 15-25.
Boutros Wrote:Hillsbrad. And Duskwood, Wetlands, and Redridge are far away from major Alliance cities? You could have fooled me. I don't think ease of finding ganking targets is any sort of issue. It's super easy for both sides, and reinforcements are always close by.Horde in Hillsbrad aren't as low level as Alliance in Redridge or even the early Duskwood quests. I spent more time getting ganked in Hillsbrad than I did fighting lower-level Horde, due to the constant raiding back-and-forth nature there. Duskwood, Wetlands and Redridge are all far away from Ironforge, which is the main Alliance city. Two gryphon rides might not be all that far, and I admit that I have no idea how far Stonetalen and Ashenvale are from Orgrimmar, but at least it's hard to get Alliance people to bother when it's two gryphon rides away.
Quote:I'd say that WC and Deadmines cancel each other out, and while Stockades might not be very impressive, neither is RFC. And since RFC is so low level any gear you get out of it will basically be replaced with a day or two.The Stockade shouldn't be compared to RFC it should be compared to Shadowfang Keep. And SFK outclasses The Stockade in terms of coolness, at least. :)
Boutros Wrote:I'm not one to say that Alliance = Easy Mode. But I don't think Horde have significant advantages in the ways you suggest either. The grass may always be greener on the other side, but I think that having 3 20-30 zones with no Horde outposts and not having to endure the Hillsbrad experience gives the Alliance a slight advantage in ease of leveling.I don't think Horde has significant advantages either, but I do think they have a much easier time to avoid being ganked in the early 20s up to 30s (especially if they avoid Hillsbrad). They have more/cooler instances too, which is a subjective thing of course (the cooler thing).
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Boutros - 04-08-2005
Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 01:50 PM Wrote:The Stockade shouldn't be compared to RFC it should be compared to Shadowfang Keep. And SFK outclasses The Stockade in terms of coolness, at least. :)
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Both Alliance and Horde have SFK quests. And SFK isn't hard to get to, it's a short run from Southshore. And while Alliance have to go through Horde controlled territory to get to SFK much of that territory is patrolled by NPCs friendly to Alliance and hostile to Horde.
RFC and Stockades are much more comparable. Both are minor instanced areas rather than world dungeons and are effectively inaccessable to the other faction. Other than WC/Deadmines, the various world dungeons that are in uncontested territory are all reasonably easy to get to for appropriate level characters of the other faction. Hell, I'd wager that the run from Theramore to RFK/RFD is shorter than the run from The Crossroads.
And as far as spurs go, I got spurs put on my Ornate Mithril Boots when I was 42 or so and I still use them whenever I need to use my mount. When I go into an instance and need stats I throw on a different pair of boots that I've had enchanted. And really Ghaz'rilla is super easy if you can get into a group with a mallet. I actually find it strange that getting the hammer to summon him is so much harder than beating him.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Phoenix - 04-08-2005
Boutros,Apr 8 2005, 02:37 AM Wrote:Both Alliance and Horde have SFK quests.No. Not unless you're a Paladin or a Warlock. And the SFK part of the Paladin quest is so tiny, just pickup an item, so it barely counts.
Quote:And SFK isn't hard to get to, it's a short run from Southshore. And while Alliance have to go through Horde controlled territory to get to SFK much of that territory is patrolled by NPCs friendly to Alliance and hostile to Horde.You mean low-level Dalaran mages and stuff? I don't really know where you're going with this but while we're on the subject I can list that RFD, RFK, SFK and Scarlet Monastery all are in Horde areas. Of all the other instances that both Horde and Alliance to go, only Gnomeregan is in Alliance territory, and Horde has insta-teleport there. I'm not saying it's really hard to get to those instances, but nevertheless, Horde has the advantage there too.
Quote:RFC and Stockades are much more comparable. Both are minor instanced areas rather than world dungeons and are effectively inaccessable to the other faction.Yeah, I can agree to that. I was mostly comparing the general levels of the instances.
Quote:Other than WC/Deadmines, the various world dungeons that are in uncontested territory are all reasonably easy to get to for appropriate level characters of the other faction. Hell, I'd wager that the run from Theramore to RFK/RFD is shorter than the run from The Crossroads.I'll take that wager. Not because I'm sure I'll win (which I'm not), but because I'm curious.
Quote:And as far as spurs go, I got spurs put on my Ornate Mithril Boots when I was 42 or so and I still use them whenever I need to use my mount. When I go into an instance and need stats I throw on a different pair of boots that I've had enchanted. And really Ghaz'rilla is super easy if you can get into a group with a mallet. I actually find it strange that getting the hammer to summon him is so much harder than beating him.Be that as it may, I haven't gotten spurs yet, and I can't put them on my boots without a blacksmith anyway. And so far no one has wanted me to do Zul'Farrak, and I can hardly take on Gahz'rilla solo.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - MongoJerry - 04-09-2005
Phoenix,Apr 7 2005, 02:28 AM Wrote:I'm curious why you think that. There is nothing magical about level 40 that suddenly stops the ganking. Horde still swarms me as soon as they see me, and every other level ?? I see gladly chases me for several minutes just to kill me. I don't call it PvP fighting when I'm fighting two-three Horde, all much higher level than me. I call it ganking.
I guess some of it depends on your definition of what PvP is. Perhaps your definition of PvP is that a person is required to send out a herald saying, "Hello, kind sir. I see that we are the exact same level as one another. I would like to engage in one-on-one combat in order to test wits against one another and enjoy each other's company. Would you be delighted to indulge me?" If that is your definition of PvP, then you should stay on a PvE server and indulge any PvP fantasies with friendly dueling.
I, however, do not consider being killed as a high level player by other high level players ganking, because you had the power to deal with or prevent the situation. You can group up, you can pay attention to general chat reports of opposite faction activity, you can go by ways that you know are populated by players of your faction, you can take cross-country tracks instead of roads, or heck, you can just pay attention to what's around you instead of falling asleep at the wheel. After you die, you can get revenge solo, group up and get revenge, or get out of dodge. If you are in a situation where you are alone and get ambushed by a group of 2-3 other players, then it is your fault for not being careful, and kudos to them for taking advantage of your carelessness. It's the intensity of the environment that makes the PvP server a much more exciting place to play. If you fall asleep and lose your edge, you die. That's the way things should be.
Quote:Mount is no good, they have mount too. And they frequently have Mithril Spurs, Carrot on a Stick and all that so they can catch me most of the time. No contested area is safe from ganking and it never will be, even at level 60.
But they have to get off the mount to fight, and when they do, you'll be long gone. Mithril Spurs and Carrot on a Stick don't make enough of a difference to matter. Maybe they matter if you are racing someone clear across a zone or something, but most races are short affairs to some safe haven, and I've never needed or used either. I've never been "run down" by anything other than someone on an epic mount, and I prefer to have stats that will actually help me in combat than something that can only be used out of combat.
Quote:I frequently hear these three areas mentioned as a plus for Alliance, which baffles me. When you're Alliance, once you reach level 20 you're screwed because every area you would want to go to after that is contested and there you're prime meat for any and all Horde gankers who feel like messing up your day. From there on out it only gets worse.
You can cover it with paint all you want, but the bottom line is: Alliance level 20-30's only have to deal with gankers. Horde level 20-30's have to deal with both gankers and populations of opposing players of their level in their zones. There are plenty of Alliance players who quest in Ashenvale and Stonetalon, and of course Hillsbrad is just impossible for Horde players to quest in, since Horde quests are mid-20's quests, while Alliance players who go to the area are mid-30's and up.
Quote:But Horde can stay in Barrens till level 25 without any risk of Alliance gankers, and after that they have Stonetalon and Thousand Needles with is just as "comfy blanket" as Wetlands or Duskwood, and brings you to a higher level than any of those areas.
I did every single Barrons and Silverpine Forest quest and got to level 21, so I don't know what you're talking about. The Barrons looks big, but it's just like Loch Modan and Westfall combined. There's no advantage to either faction there.
Quote:And if you want to gank, Horde has it easier too. Redridge is filled with level 15s to 18s or so running around, just waiting for a nice Horde-gank. There's plenty of victims in Duskwood too, somewhere around level 22-26.
But for Alliance you have to check Stonetalon or Ashenvale and see if there is any Horde foolish enough to not stay in the Barrens. And as you said, Orgrimmar is so close to both those areas, and reinforcements could be coming at any time.
You obviously have a misunderstanding of what the Barrens is like, so this point is pretty much moot. Horde players have to move out of the Barrens, and when they do, they have to go into zones that have Alliance *flight paths* to their zones. At least Horde gankers have to actually ride to their target areas.
Quote:And slightly off-topic, Horde also has two instance dungeons (Ragefire and Wailing) where they can find some nice drops and quest rewards while Alliance has one (Deadmines).
:lol: RFC is a tutorial instance dungeon. It's cute and is a nice way to introduce new players to the concept of instances. But it's small and has very little loot in it. It's nice to experience at level 15-16ish, but it's not something to write home about. It's certainly not a place to load up on loot or experience points.
Quote:In short, while I hear so many Horde players going on and on about how Alliance is "easy-mode", it's my opinion that Horde has it a lot better.
I played alliance for five months in the beta. When I started playing Horde in the retail, I realized, "Woah! I get why those Hordies complained so much!"
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Phoenix - 04-10-2005
Okay, for some reason, quotes don't work, and therefore this post looks like a mess. I've been trying to fix it, but it just won't work.
Quote:I guess some of it depends on your definition of what PvP is. Perhaps your definition of PvP is that a person is required to send out a herald saying, "Hello, kind sir. I see that we are the exact same level as one another. I would like to engage in one-on-one combat in order to test wits against one another and enjoy each other's company. Would you be delighted to indulge me?" If that is your definition of PvP, then you should stay on a PvE server and indulge any PvP fantasies with friendly dueling.No, that's not my definition. I guess I consider real PvP to be fair fights or at least fights where both parties have a decent chance of winning. I don't think permission should be required (which is why I don't play on a PvE server, Stormscale is PvP) but I do consider it ganking when I have zero chance of winning the fight, be it because of much higer levels, superior numbers, or catching me when I'm low on health or fighting mobs. That's just how I define ganking, and it's something I don't like. I like PvP, which is why I play on a PvP server, but I don't like ganking.
Quote:You can pay attention to general chat reports of opposite faction activityUnfortunately, Alliance on Stormscale just don't give a crap. If they see a Horde they just run by him unless they fight, as do I. The only time I ever hear about Horde is when someone says "if anyone sees [hordeplayer] kill him on sight, he killed me twice now!". Otherwise it's just people asking for directions.
Quote:After you die, you can get revenge solo, group up and get revenge, or get out of dodge.How do you propose a level 45 character gets revenge against three level 55+ solo? No one I've asked so far has wanted to do somethign about high-level Horde, they just prefer to stay out of their way, and I don't blame them. We would need twice their numbers to deal with them. Getting out of dodge is what I do, and I fail to see how that's a solution to anything.
Quote:If you are in a situation where you are alone and get ambushed by a group of 2-3 other players, then it is your fault for not being careful, and kudos to them for taking advantage of your carelessness.That's a nice philosophy. Kudos to that bullies in the schoolyard who starts kicking the fat kid, they took advantage of his carelessness.
Quote:It's the intensity of the environment that makes the PvP server a much more exciting place to play. If you fall asleep and lose your edge, you die. That's the way things should be.There's nothing about ganking that constitues me having "fallen asleep" and I don't think stronger people being needlessly cruel to weaker people is "the way it should be".
Quote:But they have to get off the mount to fight, and when they do, you'll be long gone.Warriors Charge/Intercept me, Hunter's use Concussion Blow, Mages Polymorph or Frostbolt or Frostnova, Rogues Sprint to catch up and then Cheap Shots or make a quick Kidney Shot or whatever, Druids Entangle me. There's plenty of ways to stop me from running away into the sunset.
Quote:Mithril Spurs and Carrot on a Stick don't make enough of a difference to matter. Maybe they matter if you are racing someone clear across a zone or something, but most races are short affairs to some safe haven, and I've never needed or used either. I've never been "run down" by anything other than someone on an epic mount, and I prefer to have stats that will actually help me in combat than something that can only be used out of combat.True, they don't make much of a difference but it is a small difference, and I have been "run down" at least once, riding across the entire Badlands. I'm just saying that a mount isn't an instant get-away-scot-free thing.
Quote:You can cover it with paint all you want, but the bottom line is: Alliance level 20-30's only have to deal with gankers. Horde level 20-30's have to deal with both gankers and populations of opposing players of their level in their zones.Pretty crappy bottom line, considering we both agree that opposing players of their level isn't a problem, it's "exciting, intense and the way it should be". So if there's nothing wrong with that, your bottom line ends up being "they both have to deal with gankers". It's not as clear-cut as that either, Horde has Thousand Needles at least.
Quote:There are plenty of Alliance players who quest in Ashenvale and Stonetalon, and of course Hillsbrad is just impossible for Horde players to quest in, since Horde quests are mid-20's quests, while Alliance players who go to the area are mid-30's and up.Hillsbrad is a problem area, I've never said anything else. I don't really see why Blizzard thought it was a nice idea to have Horde level 20s and Alliance level 30s share a contested area.
Quote:I did every single Barrons and Silverpine Forest quest and got to level 21, so I don't know what you're talking about. The Barrons looks big, but it's just like Loch Modan and Westfall combined. There's no advantage to either faction there.I'm going by this. I figured 25 was a bit too high, but then Redridge isn't 20-30 either, it's more like 18-25 and Duskwood is 23-30.
Quote:You obviously have a misunderstanding of what the Barrens is like, so this point is pretty much moot. Horde players have to move out of the Barrens, and when they do, they have to go into zones that have Alliance *flight paths* to their zones. At least Horde gankers have to actually ride to their target areas.Granted, Horde has to run/ride to Duskwood, Wetlands or Redridge, but Alliance can never find as easy targets as Horde can find in Redridge.
Quote::lol: RFC is a tutorial instance dungeon. It's cute and is a nice way to introduce new players to the concept of instances. But it's small and has very little loot in it. It's nice to experience at level 15-16ish, but it's not something to write home about. It's certainly not a place to load up on loot or experience points.So? It's still an instance, which I count as a plus for Horde.
Quote:I played alliance for five months in the beta. When I started playing Horde in the retail, I realized, "Woah! I get why those Hordies complained so much!"I played mostly Alliance in beta, and when I played Horde later on, I realized "Whoa. I don't get why Horde is whining so much, they have it better."
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - MongoJerry - 04-12-2005
Phoenix,Apr 10 2005, 02:48 AM Wrote:That's a nice philosophy. Kudos to that bullies in the schoolyard who starts kicking the fat kid, they took advantage of his carelessness.
That's offensive.
Phoenix,Apr 10 2005, 02:48 AM Wrote:There's nothing about ganking that constitues me having "fallen asleep" and I don't think stronger people being needlessly cruel to weaker people is "the way it should be".
It isn't ganking if you had the ability to deal with or prevent the situation, and at level 45, you do. At lower levels, I understand the complaints, because you have limited options on where to go and what to do, but at level 45, you have plenty you can do.
Quote:True, they don't make much of a difference but it is a small difference, and I have been "run down" at least once, riding across the entire Badlands. I'm just saying that a mount isn't an instant get-away-scot-free thing.
No, of course not. One also has to develop some skill and awareness. My comments are that once you have your mount, you have an important tool available to you to deal with or prevent would-be gankers. It's up to the individual to learn how to use that tool.
Quote:Pretty crappy bottom line, considering we both agree that opposing players of their level isn't a problem, it's "exciting, intense and the way it should be". So if there's nothing wrong with that, your bottom line ends up being "they both have to deal with gankers". It's not as clear-cut as that either, Horde has Thousand Needles at least.
Only the northern section of 1k needles, which is pretty quest sparce. At best, you can get a level and a half out of them if you clear the whole thing. The Shimmering Flats is contested territory both officially and in reality.
Quote:Granted, Horde has to run/ride to Duskwood, Wetlands or Redridge, but Alliance can never find as easy targets as Horde can find in Redridge.
Gankers never seem to have a problem finding people in Ashenvale and Hillsbrad.
Quote:So? It's still an instance, which I count as a plus for Horde.
We weren't talking about who has it better in general. We were talking about who has it safer in the 20-40 range, and it's pretty clear that the Alliance has it much better off. If we were talking about things in general, then I would mention the greater number of Alliance questlines and the more in depth storylines that Alliance quests have. However, that has nothing to do with PvP at levels 20-40.
Note: There seems to be a limit on the number of quotes you can have in one post, which is why your post isn't coming out right.
...might have to say goodbye to Lurkers on Tich :( - Phoenix - 04-12-2005
MongoJerry,Apr 12 2005, 04:47 AM Wrote:That's offensive.But it's true. It's the same situation, several strong people preying on the single weak person just because he's there.
Quote:Gankers never seem to have a problem finding people in Ashenvale and Hillsbrad.I was talking about how low level people in Redridge are, not how easy they are to find. And Ashenvale works both ways for both Horde and Alliance.
Quote:We weren't talking about who has it better in general.I was.
Quote:We were talking about who has it safer in the 20-40 range, and it's pretty clear that the Alliance has it much better off.No we weren't. I never mentioned 20-40, we were talking about 20-30. And I repeat, I don't consider it all that safe when you get ganked as often as you do in those areas. No, Alliance isn't fighting similar level Horde at those areas, but they're trying vainly to fight bullies more than twice their level. I prefer Stonetalon and Ashenvale, thanks. At least there most Horde I face I have a chance of winning against.
Quote:Note: There seems to be a limit on the number of quotes you can have in one post, which is why your post isn't coming out right.Weird.