What's so hot about Enchant

[Nightwind]

I hearby admit to being too tired to phrase a proper reply. But, I was trying to draw a metaphoric comparison, rather then a logical chain. I was drawing a conclusion from the simmiliarity of a cheat program breaking purist, to sufficent chease instilling twink.

How much difference is there between being twinked a set of eq to do high power enchants, and having sombody thre to cast them whenever you want them? The seccond character is even more levels of chease then the first, and yet is not twink? I think the definition of twink as a status only confirable with items needs to be reconcidered, or atlest expanded.

[Brista]

I think a number of us will have our own definitions

For me it's changing the power of the character with stuff from another game of D2

Giving a level 3 character a full Hsaru's set is twinking to me because you hand down items that hugely boost the character's power. Even though all the pieces can be found in Act 1 Normal

Similarly if you gave a level 80 Barbarian Tal's Hat, Headstriker, Manald and Cathan's with stuff found by your level 50 Meph runner it's still twinking if you're powering him up with stuff found in another game

But the question I would ask is: so what?

The ability to transfer items between characters and between players is clearly part of the online game. For many people it's part of the attraction - how annoying is it when you find 3 pieces of a 4 piece set in Single Player and know that your chance of getting the last piece is virtually nil

Sets in particular seem to have been designed with this notion in mind

It only becomes lame if you agree to play no-twink and then do it anyway. Or if you behave arrogantly towards people who haven't powered up their character similarly

Also if you agree to play in a no-twink group you need to agree a definition

There are many ways to raise the level of difficulty in Diablo 2 - a cookie-cutter untwinked character may well be having a much easier time than a heavily twinked character using under-powered skills

It's slightly ironic that the discussion of twinking with items has arisen from a discussion of Enchant which is now the ultimate way to power-up a low level character without the need to transfer items at all

[ShadowHM]

It's slightly ironic that the discussion of twinking with items has arisen from a discussion of Enchant which is now the ultimate way to power-up a low level character without the need to transfer items at all

I was in a game recently where the group that had gone out to the salad bar for dinner had a big plate of poutine dumped on the table.

In the game: five young (untwinked) characters moving along toward Andariel, one new character and one clvl 47 Enchantress leveling in Act V and the Cow Level.

The Enchantress bestowed her aid upon the new character while in the Rogue Encampment and moved on to slay Cows.

The team of youngsters arrived at Andariel, prepared for a reasonable fight. They invited the new character to join them for the quest. And Andariel went down in one hit by the baby. Half of us didn't even SEE Andariel before she died. :blink:

In this case, it was certainly not intended that the Enchant would alter questing for the group. But lesson learned on the 'twinking' abilities of an Enchantress.

I now know that this could have been prevented by having the baby leave and re-enter the game, thus removing the Enchant. And, I will not fault those that do want this form of aid. Just because I prefer salads doesn't automatically make me denigrate those who prefer cheeseburgers on occasion. ;)

[Occhidiangela]

Primus: As a witness to the crime, I can only say that I saw Andariel fall as I was casting Slow Missile and wondered: "Is this a bug?" A few seconds later, it became obvious what had happened. Spank Bolty for me, will you? :lol:

Secundus: Twinking = gifting a char with an item that he or she could not have earned by killing a monster in a game that that person could have created.

If you have made it to Act II normal diff, you can't find Gothic Plate. Hence, you can't wear it, I don't care if you are a level 13 Paladin with enough strength. (Full discolsure: I have done just that in the past, now and again, and put spare Sigons stuff on a char who was not yet in Act IV normal)

Beyond that, twinking and trading start to merge, and the cheese burgers of "yeah, I would have traded a flawed amethyst for Sigons Boots" start to get served up.

Fun is where you find it, and so is cheese: in the dairy section. This brings us to the Cow Level, or is it the Cheese Factory? ;)

[LavCat]

Secundus:  Twinking = gifting a char with an item that he or she could not have earned by killing a monster in a game that that person could have created.

I like this definition the best of any that I've seen.

[LemmingofGlory]

LavCat

(Occhidiangela @ Nov 29 2003, 05:04 PM)
Secundus:  Twinking = gifting a char with an item that he or she could not have earned by killing a monster in a game that that person could have created.

If you have made it to Act II normal diff, you can't find Gothic Plate. Hence, you can't wear it, I don't care if you are a level 13 Paladin with enough strength. 

I like this definition the best of any that I've seen.

As far as I can tell, "beyond his means" says the same thing with fewer words. Yet with me you disagree.

I think they like you better, Occhi.

Nightwind
How much difference is there between being twinked a set of eq to do high power enchants, and having sombody thre to cast them whenever you want them? The seccond character is even more levels of chease then the first, and yet is not twink?

The difference is what causes it. Just because a similar sort of thing happens (i.e. overpoweredness) doesn't mean it's caused by the same thing. Indeed, there already exists a word that applies to (among other things) all manner of silly overpowering measures: cheese.

I think the definition of twink as a status only confirable with items needs to be reconcidered, or atlest expanded.

Because, what? "Cheese" isn't good enough? Cheese is an excellent word! The sheer number of natural adjectives you can apply to it makes it infinitely more flexible than "twink": Rotten, Stinky, Moldy, Soft, Mild, Sharp, Spreadable, Individually Wrapped, Succulent, Yummy, Yucky, etc. The list goes on, and which word you use conveys your opinion of the cheese.

"Twink," on the other hand," lacks natural adjectives. You can add suffixes like "-ish" or "-ie", but nothing naturally fits that really conveys your opinion of the twinkage. For instance, if you were to say something like "Stinky Twinkie" you'd sound silly. Compare that to telling someone they're partaking in "Stinky, rotten cheese."

You see, "Cheese" is one of the most important things in the universe. Depending on where you live, you may have seen a commercial a few years ago that stated: "For many years man believed the Moon was made of cheese. Thirty years ago we went there and found it was made of rocks. We haven't been back since." That right there tells you of the cosmic importance of cheese, but we mustn't forget the spiritual importance.

Another commercial from the same era showed a young girl on X-Mas morning. Her family room was overflowing with presents. One of her parents quipped, "Those must've been *some* cookies you left Santa." The girl smiles saying, "I didn't leave him cookies. I left him cheese." As you can see, even beings that do not exist like cheese! That is the power of cheese!

I believe I've made my point: Forsaking "cheese" in favor of "twink" is utterly unthinkable!

Occhi
Fun is where you find it, and so is cheese: in the dairy section. This brings us to the Cow Level, or is it the Cheese Factory?

*sniffsniff*

Smells like the glue factory to me.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[gekko]

As far as I can tell, "beyond his means" says the same thing with fewer words. Yet with me you disagree.

Actually, your definition went further than just "beyond his means." Your definition, Lemming, also stated that the item could not "unbalance" the character. The problem with that? It's far, far too relative. What is balanced? What is unbalanced?

Your definition changes based on personal opinion, other items that your character already has, what skills your character uses, what (if any) restrictions you've placed on the character, the power your playing partners (if any), the goal of your character, and your playing skill. That's a lot of variables, and I didn't get them all. And yet, you stated yourself that "twink" has no natural adjectives.

At heart, this argument is one of definition and nothing else. We agree that the cheese factor is the real variable, and the disagreement is really just based on a few words.

That being said, you're still wrong. :P Very, very wrong.

To me, no-twink means you play with what you found. Not what you could have found; not what you are able to find; not what your other character found -- what you found. You call that purist. *shrugs* Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

As I said, my main problem with your definition is who decides what's unbalancing the gameplay? Does a full cleglaw's set do that? What about a limitles supply of rejuvanation potions? Magefist? Windforce? A definition such as 'twink' should not have to depend on all the variables I mentioned above.

gekko

[the Langolier]

You call that purist. *shrugs* Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

From the DSF Glossary: pure - A playing style that involves using only items found or bought in a game by that character; that means, you don't even swap legit items among various characters of your own, let alone with other players. See: Player Pure; Ultra-pure.

What about a limitles supply of rejuvanation potions? Magefist? Windforce?

Didn't we already go over each of these items?

EDIT:

Just for curiousity, let's see how it defines "twink": Giving high-level items (that they could never achieve on their own) to lower level players, such as giving plate mail or large amounts of gold to a level 1 char in Diablo.

that they could never achieve on their own

Covers items they don't have access to.

high-level items

This also covers items a character doesn't have access to. Also seems to refer to a "good item". I don't think there's a single character above level 30 that would call a cracked sash a high level item (probably not many level 1 characters would either). In any case, whether or not a specific item is "good" is subjective to its level, class and build and player style.

[LemmingofGlory]

Actually, your definition went further than just "beyond his means." Your definition, Lemming, also stated that the item could not "unbalance" the character. The problem with that? It's far, far too relative. What is balanced? What is unbalanced?

I make a distinction between the act of twinking and being a twink. Simply put, I do not always apply the label of "twink" when twinking occurs. It sounds crazy. It sounds absurd. It's illogical. It doesn't make sense. If you've been twinked, why aren't you a twink?

To me, being a "twink" carries a negative connotation. I don't apply that label unless the twinking seems either disruptive or outrageous (see prev. posts for examples). Just because I'm subjective about labeling doesn't mean my definition is subjective.

To me, no-twink means you play with what you found. Not what you could have found; not what you are able to find; not what your other character found -- what you found. You call that purist. *shrugs* Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

As Langolier pointed out, it was established DSF jargon from before D2 came out. I daresay your interpretation of the terms springs from hearing them and getting bum definitions.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[LavCat]

As far as I can tell, "beyond his means" says the same thing with fewer words. Yet with me you disagree.

I think they like you better, Occhi.

I don't disagree to a very great degree, Lemming. However Occhi's definition is more precise. Like twinking, I find cheese hard to define exactly -- but I know it when I smell it.

[Nightwind]

*thinks, nods....*
how about I call anything i think too cheased.... a cheasy twink?

[Brimstone]

Remember SNOBs ?!? That was my second variant! Ol' rouge named Akira(SNOB). What a pain in the butt - just HAD to have her pretty new present every five levels. :lol: I liked her brother Akiro(BW) much better, and I'll wager even less of the audience knows of BW. Ah, the memories...

EDIT: and SNOB present be darned if she thought she was getting his (non-twinked, to stay, uh, 'near' the subject :P ) Grandfather!

[LavCat]

I guess I'm still not used to playing LoD, because people keep making references to getting equipment easily that give them +10-15 on their favorite skills, and I'm at a loss on how everybody does it.  Maybe I can get some pointers here.  I'm serious.  Obviously, on the Enchant thing, you can buy a 2-socket +3 Enchant staff from the Act II shop and use the 'Leaf' runeword.  That'd give +6 to Enchant and +3 on fire mastery.  'Lore' can be made easily or a +1 all sorceress skills circlet can be gambled.  I guess perhaps if you're just focusing on only one tree, you could spend a lot of time gambling and get a +3 fire skills circlet.  Then, maybe you could gamble a +1 all sorc skills amulet.  So, that's +10 Enchant and +7 fire mastery with equipment that with enough gambling and patience one could obtain.  How is everybody getting more skills than that and at the same time doing things like keeping their resistances, life, blocking, and other equipment needs met?  Specifically, how could a hardcore ladder player do it?  I'm not talking about the dupe-fest that is normal softcore.  I'm wondering how a player who only uses legitimate equipment could get all these +skills that people talk about.

I have some experience now, having taken my first ladder character, now 57, into hell. This is softcore, and I admit she has died three times. She arrived in hell at 56, having put every skill point into enchant, synergies, and prerequisites.

Her enchant is now 28. Angel's amulet is the best that she has found, so I suppose by my earlier statement she should apply for that job as NPC. But -- I have three mules full of rings and amulets, which may yet be cubed into something useful. If volcanic shows up, I'll have my 30!

If anyone knows authoritatively what character level is necessary to cube a volcanic amulet by the three rings formula I would love to know. I understand the resulting ilvl is 3/4 of the clvl, but I am not very good about such things, and I don't wish to waste all those rings and amulets.

I have to say that hell is hard. Each fallen is a major battle. She could not kill Corpsefire by herself. My melee non-ladder enchantress can deal with fire immunes in hell, but not I'm afraid, my baby bow sorc.

Fortunately her hellforge quest was kind, and she has an Um to make Crescent Moon for her act 2 hireling, who is still using his brandistock from act 2 normal. Maybe that will help make the difference.

Still, she has fulfilled her mission: enchantress in hell with maxed enchant and synergies. Ladder cheese!

[adeyke]

If anyone knows authoritatively what character level is necessary to cube a volcanic amulet by the three rings formula I would love to know.

The volcanic amulet affix requires alvl 60+ (and, for amulets, required alvl = required ilvl). So, at ilvl = floor(.75 * clvl), you'd need clvl 80+ to have a chance at getting it.