Decoy vs. Valkyrie

[Archon_Wing]

First off, the character in question is for the most part a amazon that uses immolation and freezing arrow.

The obnoxious timer that the Valk has is really getting on my nerves. No, I don't want to spam valkyrie, but I can't use my other skills (immolation, freezing arrow)for an extended period of time after casting. That is bad, especialy if I meet an extra strong boss pack, then I need to throw a quick shield up. Yes, I do cast it beforehand, but I often need to resummon her due to her trademark intelligence or the monsters just doing too much damage

So here comes the decoy. The decoy does not have an annoying timer, and I believe the mana cost goes down as skill level increases. This might be an alternative to the mana-intensive valk. Of course, the main drawback is that the decoy doesn't do damage. That never really mattered to me, though, as I want a reliable meat shield. ;)
Also, points in decoy add more life to the valk

I'd like to call upon the experience of the people here. Would you think it would be best to split the points between the two, put 1 point in decoy and get high level valk, or vice versa? I'm currently playing Ladder hc, and I'm in desperate need for a reliable shield!

[NeoLunar]

I suggest getting around 5 points into Decoy. You will se a huge increase in hp for your valkyrie...

Then, you can choose to max Valk or just leave it. Its more reliable as a meat shield than a decoy because it does damage and so can attract more monsters' attentions.

Ok thats all.

[whyBish]

Of course, the main drawback is that the decoy doesn't do damage.

OK, I got to 81 in HC ladder with an LF zon (before a dolls incident), and had almost maxed valk. Even at max she doesn't do noticeable damage, my a3 cold merc was helping me more against lit immunes than the valk, so if that is your *only* reason I would go decoy. However, my personal pref was to keep a Valk up and use decoy as a scout, or to draw out enemies slowly. As long as a valk does not get poisoned she will regen fully in what looks to me like 5-8 seconds. How high to take her depends on how much you have invested in the D/A/E passives. Since mine were all around slvl11 I could probably have left the valk at a much lower level, but was hoping for an alternative damage source vs lit immunes (... which was not the case).

[Guest]

Even at max she doesn't do noticeable damage, my a3 cold merc was helping me more against lit immunes than the valk

Indeed, I don't know where these "Valks are uber" statements came from. I found a low level Shadow Master to perform way better in killing things, and when you've got her at higher levels. *shudder*

[dkass]

My experience is that it requires re-summoning a valk until she gets good gear (basically rolls a high +dam% on her spear). This can be difficult to tell without experimenting. It probably also works best with a very high level valk who is likely to last for an entire session. I can't say I've done much work in this (although at mid levels, I often recast trying to get a valk with more speed). I've never had a high level shadow master, so I can't compare the two...

[AtomicKitKat]

Is why the heck they would have implemented a Valkyrie timer in the first place!

Either you drain your mana recasting the valk for "uber" equipment, or you live with "teh suck" valkyrie you have, recasting it when she dies cos she was "teh suck"

Am I right? Sticking her on the timer, IMO, was probably the dumbest thing Blizzard ever came up with(well, there are a few others, mostly involving Duriel, but I'll reserve those for another time)

[Caaroid]

Knowing that an a mazon has an 18-frame casting time without fast cast equipment (and most won't go further than wearing magefist for the fire damage, if anything) makes the timer even more pointless. With such a low casting time one does not run the risk of accidentally double-casting Valkyre anyway... So yes, I'g have to agree that it seems a silly change.

[whyBish]

My experience is that it requires re-summoning a valk until she gets good gear

I tried that but couldn't get any useful result, the occasional flee weapon et.al. occured, but mostly I just made sure she was wearing red or blue :P

[Shevlock]

Decoys have better AI....

[Obi2Kenobi]

Actually, Decoy is higher in the monster attraction levels than Valk is. So a decoy will really attract monsters toward her instead of you.

[Thecla]

My main (sc) 1.10 bowazon has maxed immo and maxed decoy, and a lvl 1 valk. It works well, but I wouldn't recommend it as a mainstream solution, especially in hc: a maxed valk is a much better meat shield than a maxed decoy, never mind the damage. (AFAIK, decoy's also have higher life regen rates, as well as monster threat lvl, than valks.)


The pros of maxed decoy are:

Interacts well with immo -- vs. bosses like Duriel, simply cast decoy-immo-decoy-immo.. until dead (which you can't do using valk because of the timer; with a freezing arrow bowazon, though, the timer isn't an issue)

You can cast high lvl decoys for almost no mana as many times as you like (which is the way to fight nasty mobs). A lvl 1 (+skills) valk is really cheap mana-wise as well, and has decent life with the decoy synergy (though in 1.10 even high-lvl valks aren't that mana-expensive).

Decoys don't move, and you can place them where you want (more or less -- unfortunately in combat, they often don't show up in exactly where you try to put them).


The cons are:

(Main one) A high lvl valk is an almost indestructible meat shield -- a maxed decoy doesn't compare with a maxed valk as a meat shield.

Valk damage can be useful.

You can't tell when a decoy is about to die (no on-screen icon), which can be embarassing on occasions.


I think the 'best' bowazon build (especially for hc) is a maxed freezing arrow (with some da synergies) + high-level valk + a few points in decoy, not to say other options aren't viable.

[whyBish]

The one real PITA with decoy in HC is that you can't pass through it. Try 'helping' in the maggot lair (for example) by casting a decoy as a lit-bug shield... you'll hem in your buddies... not good if you want to keep friends.

My personal preference is the valk, but only as a meat shield.

Has anyone tried a valkazon --- using the valk as the only damage source (once you get it that is)? I doubt that it would be much fun, and would probably be much less damaging than a 20/20 skelmancer using a single skel, but perhaps would allow someone to study the valkyries damage more closely?

[Thecla]

The one real PITA with decoy in HC is that you can't pass through it. Try 'helping' in the maggot lair (for example) by casting a decoy as a lit-bug shield... you'll hem in your buddies... not good if you want to keep friends.

True, but this isn't such a big deal so long as you're aware of it -- you can always recast your decoy on the other side of the mob if it's in any danger of trapping someone, and sometimes it's useful to block monsters.

Has anyone tried a valkazon --- using the valk as the only damage source (once you get it that is)? I doubt that it would be much fun, and would probably be much less damaging than a 20/20 skelmancer using a single skel, but perhaps would allow someone to study the valkyries damage more closely?

In the beta, I used a valk as my main source of physical damage (though the damage on hell diff was toned down a bit in the actual release) -- she took out the hell/ancients more or less on her own. One of them had holy shock, and after isolating two ancients on my valk (they could barely scratch her) and positioning my character just off screen, I watched tv for half-an-hour while she took them out. (Not one of 1.10's better innovations.)

[whyBish]

you can always recast your decoy on the other side of the mob if it's in any danger of trapping someone, and sometimes it's useful to block monsters.

she took out the hell/ancients more or less on her own. One of them had holy shock, and after isolating two ancients on my valk (they could barely scratch her)

Yes you can recast decoy, but she requires LoS to recast, and in maggot lair sometimes can take a few attempts (especially when aiming near corners)

I believe that the valk tank ability is due to her regen and not to her hitpoints. If she gets poisoned she tends to go down rather quickly, if she is majorly damaged she seems to regen to full in about 5-7 seconds (meaning that poison is almost a requisite to kill a decent level valk)

[Thecla]

Yes you can recast decoy, but she requires LoS to recast, and in maggot lair sometimes can take a few attempts (especially when aiming near corners)

I believe that the valk tank ability is due to her regen and not to her hitpoints.  If she gets poisoned she tends to go down rather quickly, if she is majorly damaged she seems to regen to full in about 5-7 seconds (meaning that poison is almost a requisite to kill a decent level valk)

Well, I do agree that the decoy's impenetrability can be a problem for other players (or even for your own character sometimes!); all I am saying is that it's a manageable problem provided you're aware of it.

As far as the valk's ability to tank is concerned, I think it's much more than her life regeneration, though I'm not sure what makes valks so tough. AFAIK, decoys regenerate life even faster than valk's, but they are not nearly as effective as tanks. Valk's typically have more life (I believe that a decoy's base life is 50% of the caster's life) and perhaps at high levels their equipment is a big factor (especially with defense playing a much larger role in 1.10; and perhaps high lvl valks have better resistances than decoys - I don't know).

Given a little time, high levels of untreated poison da can be really nasty for anything, never mind the fact that it stops rgeneration, whether it's valks, mercs, monsters, player characters, or whatever...