Roman Legionaries

[jahcs]

I play on US west almost every evening and would be willing to play. It sounds like fun.

Act 1 mercs with fire arrows sound pretty accurate to me for historical purposes.

Giving the leader an item with charges of meteor so he can call down the greek fire for preliminary barrage may be allowed too.

edit:
Additional idea -- Get a team together similar to the germanic tribes. Druids in bear/wolf form, Barbarians with big nasty weapons, necromancers with talismans (shrunken heads etc).
Maybe periodic 4 on 4 fights between the legion and the tribe or races to objectives.

[Raziel]

Ha! Make the standard bearer a fire sorc! She could be a Meteor/FW/enchantress sorc, to represent catapaults or other defensive measures!

On my signal... unleash hell?

She could also enchant ALL the archers (who should ALL be fire arrow rogues, by the way). A good +3 Enchant "Leaf" [Tir + Ral] staff and you've got your 'standard bearer' alright. A point in Energy Shield so that it serves as your floating standard on the battlefield! :D

Or.. HEY! There's a use for the standard bearing wolf druid.. Armageddon! The randomness really would represent catapaults :)

[Nightwind]

i keep thinkking of the greek fire in timeline now....
where's your quote from?

On my signal... unleash hell?

[Raziel]

Gladiator, of course! But in that movie it has no questionmark ;)

[Caaroid]

Hehe, I got to agree with you on more than one point.

The druid would be borring as heck ... if the wolves were any good. They are not, and this means that you got to strategically position them (and the ravens), as in constantly recasting them. Since I enjoy that sort of thing I volunteered for the task :)

About the throwing mastery... well, it is hard to encourage anyone to use it for throwin javelins... but you get the LOOK if it :)
And if you're lucky to have your char flee/knockback, using them would not be that painful.
Ah well, who knows :)

For the look of it we'd need identical looking "army" characters, and that'd basically mean either weak (auraless) pallys or ironmen. I have the strange feeling that soon we'd opt to use fanat+concentration+conviction soon :)

[Little Faith]

Since the variant has evolved quite a bit from the the chaotic get go I will make a recab of where I stand right now on the subject. Here I will sum up what my variant rules are right now, though several important facet is still in full debate.


My own Roman Legion variant rules as of now:

Naming conventions: All characters must have a suitably "roman" name, and no Caesar's please.


The Roman Legion variant is a variant designed to roleplay and simulate a small unit of Roman Legionaries in Diablo 2 LoD. They will be equipped and use the same tactics as the actual Roman Legionaries as far as is possible and fun within Diablo 2. Focus will be on fighting in formation and using a mix of thrown weapons and melee weapons.


Let me first announce that this is intended to be a team variant. While many of the characters could probably be played solo with great success there is really no point in being a legionary if you don't belong to no legion.


There is three kinds of characters in this variant: Legionaries, centurion and standard bearer.

The most common will be the basic roman legionary. They are the main warriors using javelins and gladii (short swords) and wearing great imposing tower shields. They are to conduct themselves with discipline, stay in formation and follow the orders of their centurion to the best of their abilities.

Each detachment of legionaries will be lead by a single centurion. His role is to provide guidiance and inspiration to the troops. The centurion is not armed with javelins so he is free to issue orders and assess the situation. He is armed with a powerful gladius so he can enter melee along with his legionaries once melee commences. The centurion has command over the legionaries, but should strive to the best of his ability to give commands that will aid the entire unit. He should also strive to observe general roman tactical considerations at all times. No "barbarian tactics" here.

The standard bearer's role is to carry the standard of the Roman empire (symbolised by a long staff). The roman standard is almost considered sacred and must be present in all parties of 5 or more players. It is of utmost importance that the standard bearer remains safe at all times and the standard must never be compromised in any situation!


Build rules:

Legionary (barbarian class):

The legionary is the meat of the great roman army. All legionary units must at least made up halfly by legionaries, preferrably more.
The legionary is an expert in the use of the javelin and the gladius. He is also extremely disciplined and will stay in ordered formation with his comrades even under the most severe conditions.

Being a master of shield combat he will strive maximise his block chance via pumping dexterity. His goal is 222 in dexterity. The other skills are much more up to his own choices though he should always have enough strength to lift the standard imperial tower shield. Further in his lifetime he might want to boost his strength even further to allow for the exceptional and elite versions of the tower shield.

There is one skill that he must max. That skill is throwing mastery. One of the greatest assets of the Roman armies was the high power shield piercing javelins that were thrown before engagement. He is also advised to hone his training in the gladius (Sword Mastery).

In the warcry tree he is allowed, though not required, to max Shout. Besides the prerequisites he cannot use any other points in that skill tree. (Perhaps a bit of Howl).

Besides the warcries he is prohibited from using any of these skills in all circumstances:

All weapons masteries except throwing mastery and sword mastery. Throwing mastery may only be used with javelins.

Double Swing, Double Throw and Frenzy, since they all exclude the use of a shield.

Whirlwind since it requires the user to break formation.


Centurion (paladin class):

The centurion is a leader and shining example. He will guide his troops forward with his commands and lead the way as a champion when entering melee.

Regarding placement of stat points the centurion must observe the same rules as the legionaries.

Skill wise the centurion should concentrate on auras that will help his legionaries.
The few prohibited auras are:

Holy Fire, Holy Freeze and Holy Shock, Sanctuary and Redemption.

He is advised to have some well developed combat skills. Ideas could include Smite, Zeal and Vengeance. Perhaps even Holy Bolt.

He is prohibited from using these combat skills in any circumstances (but as forced prerequisites):

Charge (he advances along with his men).

Holy Shield (he does not carry the brand of Christ, but the brand of the Roman Empire).

Sacrifice, Conversion and Fist of the Heavens.


Standard bearer (druid class):

The standard bearer is especially limited. His role in combat is not so active. His main duty is to keep the Standard of Rome high and flying at all times.

It would make sense to him to observe the high-block stat requirements of the other characters since he will most likely carry a gladius/shield setup on weapon switch for emergency.

He is only allowed to put points into following 8 skills:

Cyclone armor: His wolf pelt protects him a bit from the elements.

Ravens: He is often followed by flocks of carrion birds. Imperial diviners sometimes reads these as omens.

Spirit Wolf and Dire Wolf and Grizzly: He can sometimes call for the motherly protection of the great she-wolf that nurtured Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Republic of Rome. He can only use this boon when the standard is in utter danger of being lost and he cannot rely on the protection of his comrades. Grizzly may only be used as a synergy, not actually summoned.

Oak Sage, Heart of the Wolverine, Spirit of Barbs: These are not nature spirits, but the inspiring effects of the imperial standard. He will always keep up at least one spirit.


Item rules:

The soldiers of the Roman Legion will at all times possible use the standard roman battlegear:

For the legionary this is:

Weapon switch 1: Javelins and tower shield.
Weapons switch 2: Gladius and tower shield.
Body armor: Banded mail.
Helmet: An ordinary openface helmet. Not a skull cap or a full helm.
The other slots is up to the character.

It should be said here that a "gladius" means any kind of short sword or war sword and a javelin is any kind of javelin class weapon. Also the exceptional/elite versions of all equipment may be used.

The centurion's battlegear is:

Weapon switch 1: Gladius and Scutum. A scutum is any kind of ROUND shield. He can also use a tower shield.
Weapon switch 2: Gnarled staff. This is a ceremonial implement that will never be used in actual combat.
Body armor: Breast plate.
Helmet: Crown, until one can be acquired and ordinary helm has to do.
The other slots is up to the character.

The standard bearers battlegear is:

Weapon switch 1: The Standard of Rome. This will be represented by a long staff, A battle staff or a war staff.
Weapon switch 2: Gladius and scutum or tower shield.
Body armor: Breast plate.
Helmet: A wolf pelt.
The other slots is up to the character.


Gameplay rules.

It is very important at all applicable times to observe Roman tactical dogmas. These are:

1: Stay in formation! This cannot be understated. Don't ever abandon your comrades.

2: Keep your shield up at all situations.

3: Advance steadily while keeping the enemy under javelin fire. No running and no mad charges.

4: Obey your centurion.

5: Never ever lose your battle standard. Keep the standard bearer safe at the expense of all other concerns.


Under an advance the centurion and standard bearer are to be kept safe behind the protective wall of the legionaries' shields. When melee is entered the centurion might enter along with his men. The standard bearer should still try to keep the battle standard as safe as possible, though he might help out in melee if this is the best way to keep the standard safe.

If the standard bearer should die in softcore the retrieval of his corpse is of utmost importance. If he should die in hardcore the standard must be retrieved instead. Any hardcore standard bearers must set their corpse to be lootable.

Keeping in formation and following battle plans is the majority of fun in this variant. Please observe the "Keep in formation rules".


Until all have acquired their full battle gear the unit is still considered "trainees". Twinking in a bunch of nonmagical tower shields is allowed. Any other kind of twinking or boosting is totally prohibited.




EDIT: There has been some great ideas about allowing the standard bearer to use certain Fire skills to represent the artillery that is providing support for our brave legionaries. I think the idea is excellent and makes the standard bearer role more "interactive". He is not going to use those wolves anyway.

All the fire skills but Volcano can be justified in this way:

Firestorm: Greek fire.

Moulten Boulder: Short range catapult fire.

Armageddon: Long range catapult barrage.

Fissure: An especially violent catapult hit.

Still all my other rules and pointers about the standard bearer are in full force.

[Caaroid]

As much as I'd like to be part of a team like that, I'd hate to do even a 6 on2 fights versus two necromancers...

[Raziel]

I have two big problems with the Barb/Legionare role, and they are throwing mastery and 222 dex. Argh @ that.

Me, I like the idea of a Berserker build. Since you're going to be wearing armor more for the sake of theme and appearance, why not go down the path that ignores your defense rating? That also ties in nicely with the allowed Shout skill as it is a synergy to Berserk.

It also works well with the Javelins, actually, as they will be the Legionary's leech source while the sword is their damage source.

[Little Faith]

If we want to do the whole ancient armies fights concept, the other armies should also have various restrictions to keep them in concept. No all-out teleporting bonemancers of Marrowalk Doom here thanks.


But along these lines it could be fun to have some other historical party variants:

Things I would like to see are:

Teutons: The germanic tribes that took control of most of europe after the Fall of Rome. The Goth variant is already a good way there, we just need to "historicise" it a bit more with appropriate battlegear and such.

Vikings: I have yet to see an adequate representation of the scandinavian vikings in the Diablo variant community though there has been a fair share of cheesy Viking/Northman variants all riding high on the misconception that vikings hefted big monstrous battle axes.

Scottish higlanders: Claymores, heh, heh heh.

Celts: I know relatively little about their armament. But I know they were the ones with horned helms, not the vikings. Their culture opens for a lot more fun for druids.

Saracens or Moors: Dig out those underused Falchions.


Perhaps Mongols: Use of both bows and melee. Hit and run tactics plus a general obsession with speed.

[Little Faith]

I have two big problems with the Barb/Legionare role, and they are throwing mastery and 222 dex.  Argh @ that.

Me, I like the idea of a Berserker build.  Since you're going to be wearing armor more for the sake of theme and appearance, why not go down the path that ignores your defense rating?  That also ties in nicely with the allowed Shout skill as it is a synergy to Berserk.

It also works well with the Javelins, actually, as they will be the Legionary's leech source while the sword is their damage source.

You know what? I agree fully with you.


The concentrate thing was really just a (bad) thought habit. I also fully support that the legionaries have a few personal "differences" as long as they still use the same battlegear and overall tactics.


Actually the low defense/high block thing is historically accurate.

The banded mail of the romans was not the best kind of body armor the world has seen, they got their defense from their inpenetrable shield walls.

I also fully support the notion of making the standard bearer into a kind of Fire Druid artillerist as long as Volcano is not used.



BTW, this is one of the most fast growing threads I have ever seen in here.

[Caaroid]

Well, if it HAS to be a fire druid, we can work with firestorm and molten boulder as well. Firestorm is kinda like flowing greekfire out there, whereas molten boulder is just... ah what the hell, cool?

Volcano: if I call it Pompeii, can I use it? :P

[Little Faith]

You can have Volcano as a prereq for armageddon. That should be enough toys for you.

Firestorm: Greek fire.

Moulten Boulder: Short range catapults.

Armargeddon: Long range catapult barrage.

Fissure: Particularily violent catapult shot.


Perhaps I can make something up about the Battle standard also being a focus for support artillerists.

[gimlisam]

Um, who (if anyone) is organizing this group? I want to join!

[Little Faith]

Heh, I've just did a bit of reading on Arreat Summit to see if my item restrictions were too draconian. It seems not.

Military standardisation have indeed made the selection of available equipment sorely limited, but things are not looking that bad. Unlike other variants where there are lots of restrictions on item MODS our only restrictions are on base item types.

If it's a tower shield, our boys can use it, no matter what the fine print says. Anyways I have been pleasantly suprised by the amount of uniques and set items this allowed within this variant.

Sure the only set you can complete is Death's Disguise, but many sets are still quite sexy.


The sets of interest are:

Berserker's Arsenal:
Both the helm and armour are allowed on the legionaries and it makes a pretty neat little outfit for a newbie legionary. Sure the you can't use the axe, but you aren't really missing anything. The partial bonii overshadows the full set bonus and the axe sucks anyway.

Iratha's Finery:
The godly set that the masses overlooked. Most of the items are from completely unrestricted categories and the centurion can wear crowns. The resists offered by this fine set is nigh unbelievable given that it is made up solely of normal items.

Sigon's Complete Steel:
I am inclined to call this one an immortal classic. It is again one of those sets where the full set bonus is relatively unimportant. In fact, this set is interesting simply because of it's shield. Increased block chance on set/unique tower shields is (sadly) not common and when one shows up with even the ever useful +1 to all skills what else is there to do but clap your hands? Add Sigon's Gage (the gauntlets) to the mix and you are rocking out hard! If this was great twinking excursion I would twink each legionary a Sigon's Guard and a Sigon's Gage.

The 1.10 sets are generally a bit more high-level and I doubt an experimental variant group has the time and patience to go MF'ing for anything. Yet there are a few points of interests here and there:

The Disciple:
This set is pretty much only known for one of it's items. The absurdly powerful Laying of Hands gloves. Except for the armor all items are allowed, but the partial bonii are really not that noticable.

Orphan's Call:
Again a set with only one item of real interest. The item I am talking about is Whitstans Guard. I mean, that block rate is just plain SICK! It is round, so it could be called a scutum and be placed on the centurion or standard bearer.


With regard to uniques I have only looked on the categories that has restrictions on them or the allowed weapon types, so I am not going into a discussion about boots for example. I have disregarded all ladder only items. I know all elite items are probably pointless to discuss since they'll probably never show up, but I have included them anyway:

Helmets:

Coif of Glory (normal):
Hit blinds target + javelins... mmmmm...

Rockstopper (exceptional):
I would seriously consider allowing skull caps for legionaries if one of these showed up.

Stealskull (exceptional):
Good mods, including dual leech, but none of the values are astronomical.

Steelshade (elite):
Has some fire absorb, which is always nice.

Crowns:

Crown of Thieves (exceptional):
A bit of life steal, and the stats are actually quite generous.

Crown of Ages (elite):
All purpose helm with some awesome mods such as the damage reduction. It even has some holes for further customisation. Good luck finding one though.


Armors (this category seriously made me consider to include studded leathers as well, they could be some kind of bady made scale or something):

The Centurion (normal):
I know it's only a hard leather armor, but the name is just so appropriate.

Twitchthroe (normal):
One of the reasons I want to include studded leathers. It would look damn fine on one of the legionaries.

Hawkmail (normal):
The cannot be frozen mod is somewhat interesting for a legionary who must take the brunt of the enemy assault and still be standing.

Venom Ward (normal):
At least one of the officers is not going to worry about poison for a while.

Iceblink (normal):
Freezing one's targets is always good for a melee char. Any corpse requiring skills? No? Good!

Crow Caw (exceptional):
A melee fighters dream.

Duriel's Shell (exceptional):
There is going to be great argument if this one shows up. Should the centurion wear it allowing him to act more bravely in combat situations or should it be used to protect the oh so precious standard bearer.

Skullder's Ire (exceptional):
Well it got + to all skills and Magic Find... Mind you, the whole magic find deal reminds me more of a raiding party than a highly disciplined Roman legion.

The Gladiator's Bane (elite):
The second reason I want to include studded leathers. The armor even has a roman-themed name.

Arkaine's Valor (elite):
What's to say. It's Arkaine's Valor. Not that we are ever going to find one...


Shields:

Umbral Disk (normal):
Too bad you can't give it to the legionaries, with it's hit blinds target and all.

Stormguild (normal):
Darn nifty for being but a normal quality item. This is probably a better size for a scutum.

Bverrit Keep (normal):
A tower shield with a block increase, but I still bet you can get better stuff on the Rares market.

Moser's Blessed Circle (exceptional):
A neat little high-block shield for the centurion. Even comes with a few spaces for modification.

Stormchaser (exceptional):
The first item I refer to as a scutum that is actually called a scutum ingame. I don't really know what to say about it's mods though.

Gerke's Sanctuary (exceptional):
Wow, a highblock tower shield, how infinetely nice! The other mods aren't shabby either. Kinda weird you never hear about this item. It's almost like a poor man's Stormshield.

Blackoak Shield (elite):
Cool litte thing. Why is it that it is the small shields that get all the cool mods?


Javelins:

There are only elite unique javelins (which we'll never find). Demon's Arch is pretty darn scary though.

Gladii:

Rixot's Keen (normal):
Has crushing blow, but crap damage.

Culwen's Point (normal):
One of the best normal quality unique swords out there. Still it's damage is insufficient in the long run. Give it to the centurion.

Bloodletter (exceptional):
Too bad Whirlwind is among the prohibited skills. The rest could be useful on a legionary though.

The Atlantean (exceptional):
+ 2 paladin skill levels and the damage isn't shabby either. Great sword for the centurion.


Staves:

Serpent Lord (normal):
The standard bearer could use it to leech back a bit of mana, but isn't it a bit rude to beat people over the head with the Standard of the Roman Empire.

The Salamander (normal):
The + 2 to fire skills actually work on druid fire skills too. Perfect!

Ribcracker (exceptional):
Again I find it highly awkward to use the battle standard as an actual melee weapon.

Skull collector (exceptional):
All the mods are useful for any spellcaster, regardless of class. The skills and increas maximum mana are awesome, and the MF is quite wicked too.

Ondal's Wisdom (elite):
Not that we are ever going to find one, but it would be kinda neat as the centurion's ceremonial staff.

[Little Faith]

Um, who (if anyone) is organizing this group?  I want to join!

I started the thread and I am probably the closest you come to an "organizer".


In case you missed it the positions that are up for grabs are three legionaries and one centurion.

I will be a legionary and Caaroid wants to be the standard bearer.

In case you missed everything a legionary is a barbarian who uses javelins, a short/war sword and a tower shield. He always wears a tower shield, so all those double skills are out. Also whirlwind are too out of character to be used. He shouldn't be too heavy on warcries either, though this could be up to some debate.

A centurion is a paladin heavy on auras whose job it is to organise the group. A lot of this variant excersise will revolve around carrying out orders given by the centurion and staying in formation.



I am not going to form any group today (since I need sleep) and I should probably also try to pimp this over at the Amazon Basin or Worlds Beyond.

Also we want to create a group of six, not eight, so we can freak people out in pubbies.

Oh yeah, and I and Caaroid play on Europe.
It goes without saying that we need to get a player with really sharp wits who can be trusted for this position. I shirked out of this role since leadership is not my forté.

The standard bearer is the keeper of the Roman Standard (a staff of sorts) and also acts as a focal point for the artillery (he can use some druid fire skills).


There is some pretty harsh item restrictions on all characters, but they should not destroy gameplay totally.

[Refrigerator]

I'd like to join! I think I'd rather be a Legionary but Centurion does sound kind of neat... it depends on who wants what, I guess. Did you say anything about the mercs? Whatever they are (And I agree that either act1 or act5 would be best) I think they should all be the same kind. Maybe rogues, because I don't think that the mercs will understand the concept of 'formation'. Barbs would kind of ruin the legionary formation, while rogue archers wouldn't quite be so.... noticable.


EDIT: I KNEW I was forgetting something! My oh so latin name of course!
*Ahem*
Cella Frigorefera
Refrigerator in latin :P There we go! :D

[Little Faith]

Ok, by now Gimlisam, Caaroid, Refrigery and me has shown interest in this.

We only need two new to enlist.


I just have a question: It is in regards to twinking. The fact is that not all our mandatory equipment can be found in act 1 so I was pondering wether a bit if twinking was in order.

Here are the different options as I see them:

Option 1:

At the start of the game all legionaries are supplied:
A non-magical normal quality tower shield (perhaps with some sockets so you can have fun with chippies and runes).
A non-magical short sword.
A non-magical stack of javelins.

At the start of the game the centurion is handed over:
A non-magical large shield.
A non-magical gnarled staff.

At the start if the game the standard bearer recieves:
A non-magical large shield.
A non-magical short sword.
A non-magical socketed long staff.


Option 2 (heavier twinking):
Besides the equipment mentioned above the legionaries also recieve:
A non-magical set of scale mail.

And the officers recieve:
A non-magical breast plate.


Option 3:

Option 1 or 2, but replace the standard bearer's long staff with the Staff of Kings.

[Raziel]

I probably should mention that i'm interested :) Unfortunately I play on USEast.

Hey, are stuff like Falchions, Tulwars and their elite type allowed? I know it's not the right _word_ but it might just have the right appearance in-game.

[gimlisam]

Well, I would probably play a legionnaire, leadership just doesn't sound like me. Now I just need a name...

[Little Faith]

Actually I was choosing the equipment restrictions from their in-game look. The item names in Diablo 2 are close to pure BS anyway.

I have defined a "scutum" as being any round shield that is larger than a measly buckler, even though it should preferrably be around the size of a large shield. This does include targes and rondaches even if their names are references to a later era. Not like a paladin targe looks anything like a scottish targe.

I chose both Short sword and war sword type because I thought they look suitably "roman". I was pondering whether broad swords should be allowed as well, though they are a bit long.

Regarding the falchion, an interesting proposition. Still I think it looks too much like a single edged pure slashing blade. The roman gladius is made with stabbing in mind too.



EDIT: I see your point now Raziel. On the player figure the war sword and the falchion seems to share graphics. It looks an awful lot better than the broad sword I suggested. Please bear with my incompetence.