Adariel Bug? What Andariel Bug?

[Occhidiangela]

I'd have to agree with that idiot.  Since when has teleport been spawnable on rings?  :D

I'm sure you mean "amulet".  :shuriken:
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Touche, you are correct, my memory is lacking. THis was nearly two years ago, around the time Occhidiangela emailed Gaille and said "Thanks for your hard work, you won't be seeing me here again."

It was Paladins using the spell off the piece of jewelry, not the ring, that was his whinge. He was still an idiot for arguing against using a legit item as cheating. I remembered him most for his pontificating about his smarts and his PhD credentials.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I did some "enter" to organize your reply to me within the quote.

Wow...

1.  Thats a whole of venting don't you think Occhi? 

2.  In my opinion, the line between cheesing and cheating is very thin, and can be changed by the ideas of the player.  I think that the Terms of Use says exploiting a bug in the game is illegal and considered cheating.  Therefore, you have to determine what is a bug.  The Andy/Duriel bug IS a bug, and thus (if you want to feel good about yourself) can be fixed by leaving the game before you travel to the next act. 

3.   But to get a quest drop from a boss is not a difficult thing to do.  Personally, I have no problem with the bug and exploiting it to its fullest.  If you join a game where a certain act boss has not been killed, and you have not recieved that quest yet, the boss will drop as if it were a quest drop.  It's probably another bug in the game, but the case is still the same.

4.  I think it really depends on who you play with.  If you play on the realms with gobs of idiots and are looking for specific stuff that is not in the "norm" uber runeword class, go ahead and use the bug.  If you dont want to cheese, then don't.  If you play alone and are sick and tired of seeing all these incredibly rare items that you will NEVER see, go ahead and use the bug to try and get some.  If you are fine with your equipment now, then don't.  If you play with private games on the AB or other areas that are as anti-cheating as they come, dont bother.  There is no reason to use the bug to get stronger because everyone else is just as weak as you.

5.  To sum it all up, cheese if you want to.  The main goal is to have fun while respecting other people.

Seems I did a bit of venting myself...

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Point 1: No vent, it was a comment on the accusations of cheating within the previous discussion, with a personal anecdotes added about how some people would not know cheating if it hit them in the face.

Point 2: I find the assertion of a bug hard to believe. FWIW. I ran Hell Andy twice last night for the heck of it. She dropped utter garbage. No Green, gold, one yellow, and a couple of minor blue in two deaths. I had on around 140% MF, par for the course. What bug? The first one was for the initial quest, the second to see what the heck you folks are on about with a "bug."

When I finish the Act I Quest 6, I always talk to Warriv to go east, that I can remember. That is how the game is designed to be played. You talk to Warriv to open the cinematic and go East. See the Exclamation mark over his head. If you think that is cheating, amaze me. The game is supposed to progress from you killing Andy to speaking to the townsfolk, and Warriv's convo is what sends you East. I have been playing this game since release. This is the first I have ever heard that playing the game in the designed story sequence is a bug.

"If you want to feel good about yourself?" What are you talking about? The sense of "I am legit since I eschew exploiting bugs:" like the old Dual Wield Bug that I cited?


3. How is that a bug? If you join a game where a certain act boss has not been killed, and you have not recieved that quest yet, and you kill the boss, I would nope that the boss will drop as if it were a quest drop: it is. That is how the game is supposed to work: You don't have quest, you complete quest, you get quest credit. Bug: game crash when Lord De Seis uses his thief skill. Bug: Leap Attack causes vertical leap. Bug: Charge bug. Bug: Invulnerable leapers. Bug: 100% Crit if one point picked in Mastery. Bug. 100% crit with one point in Claw mastery. Bug.


4. Cheating when playing with other players . . . you don't seem to actually address. You seem to be referring to bug exploitation: do you mean such bugs/features like the old BG IM feature, or the old BH Conc bug/feature of 1.04/1.05/1.06 fame? Your post also seems to me to confuse item farming with cheating. I would hope we not get into that, as item farming is one of many attractions to the game for some folks.

You also seem to assert that the AB holds item farming as cheating?

I don't believe you.

Are you sure you meant to say what you did the way you did? I know what it is to post too quickly (caffeine addict here) and to not proof for meaning often enough. Been in that soup often enough.

We do agree that fun is where you find it, of course. :D

Occhi

[adeyke]

Point 2:  I find the assertion of a bug hard to believe.  FWIW.  I ran Hell Andy twice last night for the heck of it.  She dropped utter garbage.  No Green, gold, one yellow, and a couple of minor blue in two deaths.  I had on around 140% MF, par for the course.  What bug?  The first one was for the initial quest, the second to see what the heck you folks are on about with a "bug."

If you had checked, you would have found that all those blue items had double durability, indicative of a failed set item. While it may not have looked like it, the drops were thus all rares or better. The bug does exist, whether you believe it or not.

When I finish the Act I Quest 6, I always talk to Warriv to go east, that I can remember.  That is how the game is designed to be played.  You talk to Warriv to open the cinematic and go East.  See the Exclamation mark over his head.  If you think that is cheating, amaze me.  The game is supposed to progress from you killing Andy to speaking to the townsfolk, and Warriv's convo is what sends you East.  I have been playing this game since release.  This is the first I have ever heard that playing the game in the designed story sequence is a bug.

Er...

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. Bugs are, by their very nature, not supposed to happen, but happen anyways. So if you're doing everything right but the wrong thing happens, then that is a bug.

Some bugs are hard to circumvent and easy to exploit. Other bugs are easy to circumvent and hard to exploit. This doesn't change whether they're a bug or not.

It's obvious that, since there is a quest drop and a non-quest drop set up for Andariel, she should drop the non-quest one if you aren't killing her for quest credit. This isn't happening. Clearly, then, this is a bug.

It's also irrelevant that you've been playing since release, since the Andariel bug was introduced in 1.10.

3.  How is that a bug?  If you join a game where a certain act boss has not been killed, and you have not recieved that quest yet, and you kill the boss, I would nope that the boss will drop as if it were a quest drop: it is.  That is how the game is supposed to work:  You don't have quest, you complete quest, you get quest credit.  Bug: game crash when Lord De Seis uses his thief skill.  Bug: Leap Attack causes vertical leap.  Bug:  Charge bug.  Bug:  Invulnerable leapers.  Bug:  100% Crit if one point picked in Mastery.  Bug.  100% crit with one point in Claw mastery.  Bug.

You're misunderstanding the bug/exploit.

If you join a game where the act boss has not been killed, but the person who started the game already completed that quest, then the quest cannot be completed, but the boss can still be killed. And if you don't have the quest yet, you get the quest drop without getting quest credit. That means it's repeatable.

Example:
Player A has already previously killed Diablo. Player A makes a game to quest in act 5. Player B has not yet killed Diablo and joins the game. Player B kills Diablo. Since player B didn't have the quest yet, he gets a quest drop. However, since the player who made the game (Player A) had previous killed Diablo, the quest is unavailable, so Player B gets no credit for it. That means that if Player B joins another such game, he'll get another quest drop.

The quest drop is supposed to be a one-time thing that you get when you complete the quest. However, the game doesn't check if the player just received quest credit; it checks if the player previously didn't have quest credit. Based on the idea behind the quest drops, this behaviour is a bug.

[whathuh]

Most of the "you"s were not aimed at you occhi, perhaps I should replace them with "one"

Point 1: No vent, it was a comment on the accusations of cheating within the previous discussion, with a personal anecdotes added about how some people would not know cheating if it hit them in the face.
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Ah, I mistook your post, sorry. Venting was the wrong word. It was a long post, mine are not usually long. My whole point is you can't really differentiate cheese and cheating, its all in the person's definition.

Point 2: I find the assertion of a bug hard to believe. FWIW. I ran Hell Andy twice last night for the heck of it. She dropped utter garbage. No Green, gold, one yellow, and a couple of minor blue in two deaths. I had on around 140% MF, par for the course. What bug? The first one was for the initial quest, the second to see what the heck you folks are on about with a "bug."

I successfully made an online andy bug char so I could find stuff for my level 9 asn. To my knowledge, the andy bug simply drops only rares and higher. I had absolutely no mf, and I consistently got rares with a few failed sets/real sets. Magic rings/charms/jewels/amulets/stackables have no way of telling if they were failed sets, but since all other magics were failed sets, I think its pretty safe to say there is a bug. I recently did andy on single player, and recieved crap the 2nd time too as well, so maybe only online thing.

"If you want to feel good about yourself?" What are you talking about? The sense of "I am legit since I eschew exploiting bugs:" like the old Dual Wield Bug that I cited?

If you despise cheese etc..., don't do it. I don't think I was disagreeing with you.

3. How is that a bug? If you join a game where a certain act boss has not been killed, and you have not recieved that quest yet, and you kill the boss, I would nope that the boss will drop as if it were a quest drop: it is. That is how the game is supposed to work: You don't have quest, you complete quest, you get quest credit.

Is it? If you clear the Den of Evil when it's already been done, you don't get the skill. Why should you get half of the reward for killing the boss? In my opinion, you should only get quest drop once, or never at all. Again, if you despise cheese...

4. Cheating when playing with other players . . . you don't seem to actually address. You seem to be referring to bug exploitation: do you mean such bugs/features like the old BG IM feature, or the old BH Conc bug/feature of 1.04/1.05/1.06 fame? Your post also seems to me to confuse item farming with cheating. I would hope we not get into that, as item farming is one of many attractions to the game for some folks.

You also seem to assert that the AB holds item farming as cheating?

Item farming is whatever the player makes of it. If the player likes item farming, (s)he should play on the net and get all the uber gear. Some people dislike twinking, and that is why they usually play alone. I don't play AB games, so I probably should have omitted that section, but from what I've heard, they play the game without the overpowered runewords like enigma and such. I could be very wrong (and probably am) but there is simply no way a player could actually find all those runes and all that stuff without going crazy from playing too much. It's possible to get it all from one baal drop, but the numbers are clearly against the player.

Are you sure you meant to say what you did the way you did? I know what it is to post too quickly (caffeine addict here) and to not proof for meaning often enough. Been in that soup often enough.

I'm going to leave this to a quote from Family Guy:

Peter: Well, I'm gettin' something really special too. And by special I don't mean special like that Kleinaman boy down the street. More special like... like Special K, the cereal. Hey, what do they do with the regular K? And for that matter, what ever happend to K. Ballard? You know, if you said mallard and you had a cold, it would sound like ballard.
Brian: Do you listen to yourself when you talk?
Peter: I drift in and out.

Like Peter, I sometimes make no sense, sorry. Hopefully not nearly to his extent.

[whathuh]

You have a knack for explaining things adeyke, thank you. I didn't even catch that occhi misunderstood the quest drop bug...

[Occhidiangela]

If you had checked, you would have found that all those blue items had double durability, indicative of a failed set item.  While it may not have looked like it, the drops were thus all rares or better.  The bug does exist, whether you believe it or not.
Er...

Ah.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.  Bugs are, by their very nature, not supposed to happen, but happen anyways.  So if you're doing everything right but the wrong thing happens, then that is a bug.

Yes, or as some of us used to call them in 1.04 days, a "feature." :D

Some bugs are hard to circumvent and easy to exploit.  Other bugs are easy to circumvent and hard to exploit.  This doesn't change whether they're a bug or not.

Yes indeed, but it does relate to the accusations and assertions of cheating.

It's obvious that, since there is a quest drop and a non-quest drop set up for Andariel, she should drop the non-quest one if you aren't killing her for quest credit.  This isn't happening.  Clearly, then, this is a bug.

I am with you.

It's also irrelevant that you've been playing since release, since the Andariel bug was introduced in 1.10.  You're misunderstanding the bug/exploit.

Aha, now I see what the hulabaloo is about, that was unclear to me. Thank you so much for clearing that up: yet again.

If you join a game where the act boss has not been killed, but the person who started the game already completed that quest, then the quest cannot be completed, but the boss can still be killed.  And if you don't have the quest yet, you get the quest drop without getting quest credit.  That means it's repeatable

.

OK, I see the fine distinction. I also see where I was misunderstanding what the issue was at hand. Thanks, for the second time. :D

[Zafarium]

Question. What equals cheese? :(

[Occhidiangela]

Question.  What equals cheese? :(
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Cheese is a very subjective assessment of how one approaches a game and what features of the game one exploits in order to successfully accomplish X, Y or Z.

Some folks think that twinking is cheesy, as it reduces challenge. Some folks find item farming cheesy, as the story in the game would have you kill Baal or Mephisto just once.

Some folks consider rushing as cheesy. The char gets to a harder difficulty on the coat tails of another, stronger player.

Some folks consider even modest bug exploitation cheesey, and some folks consider any number of skills, skills that are not working properly, cheesey. For example, the IM/BLood Golem "feature" made early Necros nearly invincible. Some folks would not play that due to the lack of challenge. Cheese.

Some folks considered Whirlwind Cheesey, particularly after Lances were added.

Some folks considered Blessed Hammer/Concentration cheesey, particularly since as time went on, it became more apparent that this was an "unintended feature."

One side of the argument says that "if it is coded into the game, using it is not cheating." Another side says "if it is obvious working incorrectly, it is wrong to use the feature."

Depending what you play for, and why, will drive where you stand on cheese.

Cheese: it is a matter of taste. :D

Occhi

[Zafarium]

Thank you. I now understand what just happened here.

[Taem]

Careless use of the classification of something as "cheating" needs to be avoided, since our policy here is very harsh on cheating.  Not a charge to carelessly fling about the lounge, but when the shoe fits, it does need to be worn.
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I admit that I was initially in-error about the whole topic in general. I was later corrected and apppologized to wronged parties, however I did say it was my belief that discussing the mechanics of the 'Quest Drop Bug' for further exploitation was, IMO, not tolerable on the Lounge because they don't advocate "cheating". Now you bring up a very important point, Occi, about the distinctions between "cheating" and "cheesing", however I still feel this type of discussion about exploitable bugs and how to improve the exploit would at least get a warning here at the Lounge and is not welcome. While I don't have the authority to declare this as a truism, I think I speak for the majority of the legit players and their beliefs here at the Lounge.

As to rather this bug is a "cheat" or "cheese", perhaps I misused the word "cheat" in my previous posts, and for that I will appologize again to anyone whom felt offended by my words, or anyone whom thought I was over-stepping my rolw and was trying to moderator my own ideals on these boards. I was not trying to offend; I am only a casual poster and would never declare my own thoughts as "how it is here @ the Lounge," and for now on I will watch my use of the "cheat" word in my Lounge postings. It is a powerful word here and I do agree with you, Occi, that when used to define a persons intent, it should be reserved only when it is obvious of a posters mal intent.

[SetBuilder]

*WARNING: BACK TO ORIGINAL TOPIC*

That was a bug?!! And here I was thinking it was a bug that Duriel DOESN'T ever drop any neat stuff after the first time I kill him.

Odd.