Pally

[whathuh]

Heh.  I assumed that you meant "widdershins"; I didn't know "withershins" was used as an alternative form of it ;-)
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Looked it up on dictionary.com to figure out how to spell it and it had like 3 different spellings. I still don't know if its counterpart "diesel" is really spelled that way.

[whathuh]

erm, withering means getting old an crumble and shins are the bones of the legs below your knees, are they not?
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you are correct, but when put together or "widdershins", it becomes an archaic (really old and outdated) way to say "of the opposite direction" or "counter-clockwise". At least I hope that's what it means.

[SetBuilder]

Never really been much into paladins, but do have a few high level ones. I go with tried and true.

Vengence: 20
Fanatasism: 10
Fire Resist: 20
Lightning Resist: 20
Cold Resist: 20
All resists (can't think of skill name): 10
Plus a couple pre-reqs.

Use Fanatasism as secondary, vengence as primary. All the resistances are a passive increase in the percentages of elemental damage you do with vengence. You become a one hit wonder. Requires a bit of mana, plus probably a mana sucker (Usually a ring or gloves or something good for that). I only play single player and LAN, no battle.net, so don't know how it'd work online.

I do know that in single player, there is almost no challenge, so I usually play players 8, which makes things significantly harder (imagine a lightning spammer that doesn't die in one shot when you inflict 6000+ damage per hit), and my paladin characters are still usually one hit wonders for most anything, and die just about never, and hit REALLY REALLY fast. Works well.

[Yogi_Baar]

Never really been much into paladins, but do have a few high level ones. I go with tried and true.

<snip Skills>

Use Fanatasism as secondary, vengence as primary.[right][snapback]71808[/snapback][/right]

I thought the "tried and true" aura for avengers was conviction.

[Occhidiangela]

I thought the "tried and true" aura for avengers was conviction.
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Depends on the weapons involved. I agree with Conviction as my "gut" preference for Vengeance, particularly as it helps avoid misses with its DR reduction. Consider that if you have merc, the damage and attack speed from Fanat helps him (IIRC only a 50% damage boost).

In Hell, typically one of the elements is zero damage for a given monster. Conviction cannot break Physical Immunity, nor the 50% resistancePhys Resistance. That said, Fanatacism adds Physical boosting to the attack regime for a four element slap on a given monster.

If you choose to go two handed, relying on a merc for assisting in crowd control, and the increaseed attack speed Fanaticism provides to stun monsters and thus avoid a return hit, my guess is that Fanaticism is a decent option.

My two centavos.

Occhi

[SetBuilder]

Conviction is cool, but fanatacism adds more damage that multiplies the vengence damage, plus the speed, adds to merc. Played both ways, and the way I play it now seems to work better for me.

Just my two cents, anyway.

Also, have tried the speed merc, zeal+fanaticism. Not worth a damn in hell difficulty. Too many lightning spitters. Need power, not speed. For Normal difficulty, and some parts of nightmare though, works rather well. With +X to paladin skill items, there are a lot of places I use that just to run through more quickly, but overall, I like my normal method better.

[adeyke]

Conviction is cool, but fanatacism adds more damage that multiplies the vengence damage,[right][snapback]71883[/snapback][/right]

Fanaticism does not multiply your vengeance damage.

[SetBuilder]

Fanaticism does not multiply your vengeance damage.
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Is that right? :blink:

Odd, considering I do more elemental damage when using both than only vengence. Maybe a bug?

Edit: Oh, and technically, I suppose it'd be the other way around. Fanatacism multiplies base damage, similar to a weapon. Is an aura that modifies base. Next, use hit somebody with vengence. You have a +250% to all elemental damages skill there. That works off modified base. Boom! Multiplied. The workings of the game support my theory, as I do about 6 times as much damage using fanaticism as not. Maybe that's just a freak accident?

[adeyke]

Is that right? :blink:

Odd, considering I do more elemental damage when using both than only vengence. Maybe a bug?

Edit: Oh, and technically, I suppose it'd be the other way around. Fanatacism multiplies base damage, similar to a weapon. Is an aura that modifies base. Next, use hit somebody with vengence. You have a +250% to all elemental damages skill there. That works off modified base. Boom! Multiplied. The workings of the game support my theory, as I do about 6 times as much damage using fanaticism as not. Maybe that's just a freak accident?
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You're mistaken <_<.

Vengeance is based on your weapon damage. The vengeance could just be considered off-weapon ED for purposes of the damage calculations, except that it's elemental instead of physical. Fanticism is also off-weapon ED. They work additively, not multiplicatively.

[phaedi]

Is that right? :blink:

Odd, considering I do more elemental damage when using both than only vengence. Maybe a bug?

you speak about 6000 dmg per hit... with what a weapon do you deal this dmg?
i seem to be stuck around 3000 with mine and i know that maxing the other 2 resi auras wont double the dmg.

Edit: Oh, and technically, I suppose it'd be the other way around. Fanatacism multiplies base damage, similar to a weapon. Is an aura that modifies base. Next, use hit somebody with vengence. You have a +250% to all elemental damages skill there. That works off modified base. Boom! Multiplied. The workings of the game support my theory, as I do about 6 times as much damage using fanaticism as not. Maybe that's just a freak accident?
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even when its proven that fanatism shouldnt enhance your dmg (i made tests with
concetration, because it enhances magic dmg(hammers), i had some hopes...)
i would like to see some screenshots of your chartable with and without fanatism
on avenge, with and without fana on normal attack.
6times the avenge dmg is absolutely worth looking at, even if it may be a bug

[SetBuilder]

Aight. I'll double check the data. Damage is accurate (~6000), will try changing auras again to double-check.

Screenies are more difficult, as I have no internet connection at home (dialup is too slow, I won't use it, and too lazy to set up high speed), and bringing any files into work is pretty much impossible, as is taking them home.

If I'm mistaken, I apologize, but last time I checked, I coulda sworn it worked like that...

[Occhidiangela]

Aight. I'll double check the data. Damage is accurate (~6000), will try changing auras again to double-check.

Screenies are more difficult, as I have no internet connection at home (dialup is too slow, I won't use it, and too lazy to set up high speed), and bringing any files into work is pretty much impossible, as is taking them home.

If I'm mistaken, I apologize, but last time I checked, I coulda sworn it worked like that...
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Be careful about believing the Lying Character Screen. :D That said, I think they fixed the problem with Vengeance Damage display when LOD came out.

In any case, for Melee Weapons:

Final_Min_Damage = Weapon_Min_Damage * (Str + 100) / 100
Final_Max_Damage = Weapon_Max_Damage * (Str + 100) / 100

Let's work through the numbers. Let's say you have a strength of 200, and a modest Cruel Collossus Blade of Quickness (ED +250% Enhanced Damage). This means no shield.

Vengeance at 20 with +5 skill adders to combat skills via a +2 rare Circlet, +2 rare amulet, and +1 from, say, Skulder's Ire.

Fanatacism at 20.

Conviction at 20.

For slvl 20 Fanatacism 203-402.5(2+2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 +3.73) = 12.15(203-402.5) But wait! Divide all of the physical damage by 2 in Hell Difficulty.

203-402.5(2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 +((2 + 3.73)/2)) = 9.285 x (203-402.5)
Oh, wait, which element is the monster immune to? Which is it resistant to? You lose up to 2.14 multiplier for each Immunity.

Your screen may say one thing, but I don't think the screen accounts for the divide by two bit, :angry: for example, and it does not reflect other Monster Immunities.

Let's look at Conviction @ 20: 203-402.5(2+((1+1.25)2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 )) = (203-402.5)x = 203-402.5x(16.445) but since we divide Physical damage by 2, it is really 15.445(203-402.5).

You lose about a 4.5 multiple for any elemental immunity the monster has, so we can assume about 11ish x weapons damage for Conviction and about 7ish X weapon's damage for Fanatacism for a one elemental immune, standard 50% PI in Hell. There is the chance that Conviction can break some "immunities" that started as "resistances" for bosses, but that only makes Conviction that much better, so I won't stack the deck. :P

The numbers for comparison are nominal. Considerably higher amounts of raw damage and +skills are possible, which will tilt the numbers a bit here and there. What these numbers illustrate is the advantage of Conviction for a Vengeance build versus Fanaticism. Fanatacism's speed may add a frame break point, and a few more hits per series of seconds, however, Conviction's -DR (90% Monster Defense Reduction) more than makes up for the +AR%(+125%) from Fanatacism. Fewer misses means more aggregate damage. Damage over time is either a wash, or in favor of Conviction.

Lok made a good case for the -DR being a better choice about 4 years ago . . . on a similar topic. :) Check the strat section for his discussion. Last I checked, it is still up. http://www.lurkerlounge.com/content/view/784/123/

The to hit consideration, albeit for a different set up than I posited above, is excerpted from that link. While written for version 1.04 -- so HP and DR for monster is out of date -- how actual "To Hit %" is influenced by -DR versus +AR is germane.

Consider the case of a Hell Urdar. A hell difficulty urdar has 481 def (see http://darkness.diabloii.net/beastiary/n...nderbore/) and is level 81. Your chance to hit a monster is

Chance = (a/(a+d))*(2l/(l+L))

Where a is your attack, d is the monsters defense, l is your level, and L is the monsters level. Most people are going to experience a hit rate loss from the level difference term, but if you assume for the sake of argument that you have somehow managed to reach level 82, you can discard it. Solving for a we find

Your required attack rating, a = cd/(1-c), where c = your chance to hit.

So lets pick a reasonable hit rate of 75%. To hit this hell Urdar at 75% at level 82, you need an attack rating of 1443. Since you have a 20% bonus to hit with vengeance, you need a base attack rating of 1203.

You attack rating with no gear is, a= dex*4 -28, or a ~ dex*4

So to get this attack rating on dexterity alone, you would need a dexterity of 308 with no attack rating adders. Even if you get really lucky and have +400 attack rating from objects, you would need a 207 dexterity. Almost no paladins will ever want to pump their dexterity that high.

Warm Regards

Occhi

[adeyke]

For slvl 20 Fanatacism 203-402.5(2+2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 +3.73) = 12.15(203-402.5)&nbsp; But wait!&nbsp; Divide all of the physical damage by 2 in Hell Difficulty.

First off, weapon damage is always integer, so it's just 203-402 damage. Also, since the character has +5 skills, that'd be a slvl 25 fanaticism, for +458% damage. Also, you're missing a 1 term for the unmodified damage. So it should be:

[203-402] * (1 + 2 + 2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 + 4.58) = [203-402] * 14 = [2842-5628]

Also, there is no global physical resistance in 1.10, so you don't that damage divide by 2. You would, however, have to consider the resistance of the specific monster you're fighting.

Your screen may say one thing, but I don't think the screen accounts for the divide by two bit,&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; for example, and it does not reflect other Monster Immunities.

The LCS states how much damage you're dealing, not how much damage the monster is taking. That is, the listed damage will be the same regardless of whom you're fighting. This is not a bug; it's a design decision.. However, the LCS value is also often wildly inaccurate, so that part is a bug.

Let's look at Conviction @ 20: 203-402.5(2+((1+1.25)2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 )) = (203-402.5)x = 203-402.5x(16.445) but since we divide Physical damage by 2, it is really 15.445(203-402.5).

I really don't follow your math. For one thing, you'd still have to make it slvl 25, and there's still no global physical resistance. For another, resistances cannot go below -100%. For another, conviction applies to all three elemental damages (fire, lightning, and cold), while you're just applying it to one of them.

Suppose a monster has 0% resistances. Then a high-slvl conviction would drop it to -100%. The damage would then be:

[203-402] * (1 + 2 + 2(2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14)) = [203-402] * 15.84 = [3215-6367]

However, for a fair comparison, you'd really have to consider the monster's resistances instead of just assuming they're all 0%. The higher the resistances are, the scales tip in favour of conviction. And you'd have to somehow factor in fanaticism's speed boost; the damage per second is more important than the damage per attack.

It is true that conviction is a much better aura to go with vengeance, but the math you used to show this was very flawed.

[SetBuilder]

Interesting. I'll have to print this out and look at it some more.

Thank you both for the info.

[Occhidiangela]

EDITED for !!@#%^!**&! tags.

First off, weapon damage is always integer, so it's just 203-402 damage. 
[203-402] * (1 + 2 + 2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 + 4.58) = [203-402] * 14 = [2842-5628]

Thanks for the rounding tidbit, it makes absolutely no difference to the illustration. I thought I had accounted for the 1 in 1+2.5 = 3..5 to get to original damage, but it appears, on further review, that I did not. Irrelevant for the illustration, the base damage is used by both, but BOOOOOOO! HISSSSSSSS!! careless of me.

Also, there is no global physical resistance in 1.10, so you don't that damage divide by 2.  You would, however, have to consider the resistance of the specific monster you're fighting.

What? I must have missed a memo. 1.10d? OK, that changes it to "11ish versus 9ish" for a monster with one immunity, a generally expectable case.

The LCS states how much damage you're dealing, not how much damage the monster is taking.  That is, the listed damage will be the same regardless of whom you're fighting.  This is not a bug; it's a design decision..  However, the LCS value is also often wildly inaccurate, so that part is a bug.
I really don't follow your math.  For one thing, you'd still have to make it slvl 25,

No, I don't. I presumed rares added combat skills, not All Paladin Skills. However, the Skulders should have made the auras 21 not 20. Blah again, sloppy sloppy sloppy.

For another, conviction applies to all three elemental damages (fire, lightning, and cold), while you're just applying it to one of them.

No, I add all three. Note the THREE 2.14's. Why do yo think I wrote it thusly? (2+2.14 + 2.14 + 2.14 +3.73)

But OOPS, EEEP! I forgot about the cap at 100. GAAAAAAAAH! Maybe the break point comes at Fanaticism somewhere in the thirties due to the cap. :blush:

However, for a fair comparison, you'd really have to consider the monster's resistances instead of just assuming they're all 0%.  The higher the resistances are, the scales tip in favour of conviction.  And you'd have to somehow factor in fanaticism's speed boost; the damage per second is more important than the damage per attack.

Excuse me.

I considered the difference between a frame here and there compared to the miss frequency I would expect with Fanatacism compared to Conviction. What is the significant difference between a 5 frame attack or a 6 frame attack, when the monster dies in maybe two seconds? In two seconds, it is 10 versus 8, in 2.2 seconds 11 versus 9 . . . attempts to hit. On a monster for monster basis where one is killing each in a few seconds, the occasional extra hit does not strike me as significant. If all we are discussing is bosses in 8 player games . . . the extra two attempts every few seconds might start to make a difference.

A miss does ZERO damage. Conviction's -DR combined with Vengeance's AR boost, 95% to hit arrives rather quickly.

I also assume a character level < or = 85. Why? I rarely go past that, as Baal is usually dead by then. If one gets ahead of the clvl/mlvl curve, the miss issue changes a bit as Fanatacism gets a closer shot at 95% to hit when the gap widens between clvl and mlvl.

It is true that conviction is a much better aura to go with vengeance, but the math you used to show this was very flawed.

I am out of practice, for sure, and could have used another proof on the way through.

Hmmmmm. I just went back and noted that I did not spell out "combat skills." Man, really out of practice.

*scratches head*

Occhi