Rogue Build Proposal

[ima_nerd]

Hi, everyone. I would like to ask fellow Rogues (or anyone else who feels the urge to comment) their opinions on this build.

I'm level 44, currently using a stunlock build. CS, Gouge and KS with my damage coming from SS with Sword of Serenity and an ending 4-5 pt evis. I really think Ambush will be important come Battlegrounds. With large-scale PvP, getting mass amounts of damage out before the target realizes what's going on will be crucial in the inevitable chaos that will be Battlegrounds. So, here is my idea.

Casters: Ambush+Gouge+SS+CB+Evis
0 secs: 100e
0 secs: 40e Ambush - 3 CPs (Initiative and SF, if the Ambush crits)
2 secs: 15e Gouge - 4 CPS
4 secs: 35e
6 secs: 55e
6 secs: 15e SS - 5 CPS
8 secs: 35e CB+Evis

For melee I could either use something similar to above, do my current stunlock, or just deposit my DOTs and crippling poison, back off and watch them die. I don't feel like writing out those three options. My main point is too show how quickly I could conceivably bring a caster down. I've seen it done with less than that but I'm being realistic and not counting in crits on the Gouge or the SF bug proccing on the Ambush.

The battle plan can be altered. Here's the meat of my post, the build.

--Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Initiative Rank 5
Ghostly Strike Rank 1
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 19
--Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Combat Total: 2
--Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Murder Rank 2
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Lethality Rank 5
Cold Blood Rank 1
Seal Fate Rank 5
Assassination Total: 30
Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

It's basically a hybrid between my current build and a traditional 8/30/13 BS/Ambush build, sacrificing the BS talents (double meaning intented). I am not a fan of BS. Positioning is too hard, especially with lag and other factors outside of my control. In a perfect world it may be superior to SS but it's not a perfect world so SS FTW.

I've heard of people being able to set a Stealth set of weapons and a non-Stealth set of weapons that change automatically as you enter/exit Stealth. I'll use a dagger in main and slow sword/mace in off for Stealth and switch 'em for non-Stealth.

I think that's about it. Please comment and criticize as you see fit. Actually, if anyone has some numbers comparing BS to SS, that'd be cool. I haven't seen anything I'd call accurate. Thank's in advance.

[Boutros]

I've heard of people being able to set a Stealth set of weapons and a non-Stealth set of weapons that change automatically as you enter/exit Stealth. I'll use a dagger in main and slow sword/mace in off for Stealth and switch 'em for non-Stealth.
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I use WeaponQuickSwap and StanceSets, which allows such weapon swapping. It's nice, but at least for my warrior I find switching stances to be a bit clunkier, more prone to failure if I try to switch immediately after using a skill. This probably isn't as big an issue for a rogue though. You can find them at http://capnbry.net/wow/

[ima_nerd]

Thanks.

[Malakar]

Name Rank Lvl Weap DPS Weap Speed Weap Dmg Dmg Energy Cost 5p Evis Dmg 5p Evis Nrg Cost 5p Evis Total Dmg Dmg Per 100 NRG
Backstab 1 4 8.2 1.9 15.58 38.37 60 72 335 263.85 78.76119403
SS 2 6 8.2 2.7 22.14 28.14 45 72 260 212.7 81.80769231
Backstab 5 36 22.1 1.9 41.99 152.985 60 300 335 1064.925 317.8880597
SS 6 38 22.1 2.7 59.67 81.67 45 300 260 708.35 272.4423077

W/ Lvl 40 rank of Evisc:
Backstab 5 36 22.1 1.9 41.99 152.985 60 454 335 1218.925 363.858209
SS 6 38 22.1 2.7 59.67 81.67 45 454 260 862.35 331.6730769

I lost that link to the forum formatter thing that was on the AB... anyone have it?

[Artega]

If you're going for stunlock (I prefer to call it stunrape, but meh :) ), shouldn't you be using maces for the Mace Specialization route?

As for your view on BGs, I'd have to agree. You Rogues die very, VERY fast once we know you're there (hooray for Earthbind!), but opening with an Ambush and squeezing in a CB+Eviscerate usually means some caster just bought the farm. I'd think that DoT rogues would do even better in this venue (opening with Garrote instead of Ambush, if that's an option), since it's pretty easy to not notice that you just got tagged with several nasty DoTs that totally ignore Armor (stupid rogues *grumble*).

[Malakar]

shouldn't you be using maces for the Mace Specialization route?

The problem with this is that it restricts your talents, and rogues get a lot of stun abilities to make up for it. I'd imagine it could even cause immunity to stun in some cases, though I have no idea how often.

I prefer to call it stunrape

Yeah, it's definitely the best thing I've seen against warriors. Combined with gouge it can be pretty nasty. It's actually pretty fun dueling a good rogue that uses these tactics on an MS "rogue killer" warrior. Once you both get good, I'd say the win goes the warrior a little more often than the rogue, though it's a good fight and not easy. I've only done this at 40 though, I'd be interested to see how things change at 60, when I'd get enrage and rogues would have more talent points available.

[ima_nerd]

Yeah, it's definitely the best thing I've seen against warriors.

My personal favorite is to just put on Garrote, a 5 pt Rupture and a proc of Crippling poison and back off then rinse and repeat as necessary. Intercept (or whatever the in-battle Charge is. My warrior never made it that high) can be a problem but Overpower really kicks my ass if I stay too close.

shouldn't you be using maces for the Mace Specialization route?

I went for Seal Fate and Initiative over Mace Spec for rapid CP generation as to more reliably keep the target stunned.

I'd think that DoT rogues would do even better in this venue (opening with Garrote instead of Ambush, if that's an option), since it's pretty easy to not notice that you just got tagged with several nasty DoTs that totally ignore Armor (stupid rogues *grumble*).

Agreed. That will be my secondary plan for when I have to fight those nasty non-cloth wearers :)

[Malakar]

Overpower really kicks my ass if I stay too close.

Yeah, it's going to be worse after the patch too. :D

[acidjax]

The problem with this is that it restricts your talents, and rogues get a lot of stun abilities to make up for it. I'd imagine it could even cause immunity to stun in some cases, though I have no idea how often.
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The stun immunity message that appears on the screen is misleading. Each of a rogue's stun options are on different diminishing returns timers. You could say cheap shot is type A, mace mastery proc is type B, etc. By some stroke of luck if a rogue were to proc mace mastery stun 4 times in 10 seconds, the 4th one would show up as the target being "immune". The immunity however is only towards stuns specifically from mace mastery proc and lasts for 15 seconds after the 3rd proc stun effect wore off.

[acidjax]

Hi, everyone. I would like to ask fellow Rogues (or anyone else who feels the urge to comment) their opinions on this build.
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Different rogue builds can be effective in solo or group PvP and some are stronger against some classes. I think the best thing to do is decide on the rogue role or playstyle that is most enjoyable for you. The following link is a nice write-up on several rogue builds that offers some commentary on different rogue playstyles.

http://www.nurfed.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=278

[ima_nerd]

Hi, everyone. I would like to ask fellow Rogues (or anyone else who feels the urge to comment) their opinions on this build. 

I guess what I should have asked was whether or not other people saw this build as viable in Battlegrounds. Usually BS and Ambush go hand in hand since they share talents but as I despise BS, I'm not going to use it. I really think Ambush is a superior opener as compared to CS. CS is great in situational use but Ambus IMO is better in general. I may be wrong, but I don't think any Rogue players have responded yet :( Please don't make me post this in WoW forums... =:o

[acidjax]

I guess what I should have asked was whether or not other people saw this build as viable in Battlegrounds. Usually BS and Ambush go hand in hand since they share talents but as I despise BS, I'm not going to use it. I really think Ambush is a superior opener as compared to CS. CS is great in situational use but Ambus IMO is better in general. I may be wrong, but I don't think any Rogue players have responded yet :( Please don't make me post this in WoW forums... =:o
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Group PvP is not so simple that you can always follow a set order of attacks. You cannot burst damage fast enough to solo take down a mail/plate class (at least at 60). Gouge can be wasted since it can be dodged/parried/etc. along with your allies doing damage. Ambush as an opener is situational as well. Garrote can be better against plate and rogues (to bring them out of vanish).

You mention wanting to take down casters and it's not so easy either to follow a set order. Priests will fear you the instant they're out of any stun. Mages have frost nova and blink. Warlocks have fear and can mesmerize you with their invisible succubus.

Really, just about any rogue build can "work" in group pvp because any way you cut it, rogues still have good damage. Talents are about making you stronger versus certain classes. Ambush/backstab will help you deal more dps to cloth classes; BS is superior to SS in damage due to crit chance from talents. A combat build will help you perform better as a frontline assister (light tank). A mixed subtlety/assassination will net you the most dps against tank classes.

When deciding on a build for PvP, it's important to decide on which classes you want to go after. There's no build that will let you be the best at everything.