Care and feeding of a young Smiter?

[Zyr]

I don't play Paladins, except for the obligatory HFire Zealot/Ranger I'm forced to build whenever the first Kinemil's Awl of the ladder drops (and I've never leveled one past 47). Being able to summon minions for mere mana is a large part of what makes a D2 character interesting for me, so the vast majority of my time is spent playing Amazons, Assassins, and Druids.

In recent months (specifically, since Grimborn's account (in the Technical Forum at the Amazon Basin) of soloing Uber Tristram with only Normal quality items), I've grown interested in the potential of the Smiter. Also, thanks to what amounted to a dare from SSoG and some enthusiastic posts by BIGeyedBUG (also at AB), I've decided to explore the possibilities of Conversion, as a remedy for the lack of minions.

NobleExperiment will have 65% Crushing Blow from a Black Flail and Goblin Toe, once he grows into them. (Grow into them he will; while the vast majority of my characters are HC, NE is SC.)

Basic skill point allocation plan is Grimborn's: 20 Smite, 20 Holy Shield, 20 Fanaticism, ~8 Salvation, with an undetermined number of points to be spent in Conversion.

Here's the problem I'm facing: At level 14, having achieved the Inner Cloister WP, NE is running out of steam with the +1 max damage Javelins he's been throwing (augmented by his prerequisite point in Might). I'm confident that Smite will come into its own at some point, but it hasn't yet: He's doing only 5-16 damage with slvl 7 Smite, wielding a Targe and a Steel Scimitar.

I'd very much appreciate knowing what worked for you in leveling your Smiter.:)

[Assur]

Here's the problem I'm facing: At level 14, having achieved the Inner Cloister WP, NE is running out of steam with the +1 max damage Javelins he's been throwing (augmented by his prerequisite point in Might). I'm confident that Smite will come into its own at some point, but it hasn't yet: He's doing only 5-16 damage with slvl 7 Smite, wielding a Targe and a Steel Scimitar.

I'd very much appreciate knowing what worked for you in leveling your Smiter.:)

Hi

It's been a long time since I played a Smiter :(but how about using a sceptre with +Zeal, if that's not against your principles, and gamble for a better javelin.

[Zingydex]

The +Zeal scepter seems like a good bet; Smiters have no crowd control to speak of. Matter of fact, Smite in and of itself is of little use in regular melee - its primary value is dismantling bosses.

Actually, if you're just looking for enough damage to get you to the next act, tracking down a scepter with +2 or +3 Holy Fire will tack enough elemental damage onto your attacks to reach Andariel.

Other than that, yeah, get some better javelins. Or something. Actually, any rare with a couple of decent damage mods (and a "fast" or "very fast" displayed swing speed) will get you through act 1. Ah, for the old pre-expansion days when a sword with three perfect gems was enough to get you past normal Diablo. (Speaking from personal experience; mine was amethyst/sapphire/topaz, IIRC).

[librarian]

Heiho,

The +Zeal scepter seems like a good bet; Smiters have no crowd control to speak of. Matter of fact, Smite in and of itself is of little use in regular melee - its primary value is dismantling bosses.

I heavily disagree here. Smite itself has crowd control written all over it and is in fact a better crowd control skill than Holy Freeze. Just nowadays you get the term 'Smiter' most of the time associated with '+xxdamage bug', 'LT on strike' and other such stuff.

Steel has even a very strong OW on it.

Surely it depends on your focus on it, but really, the Smiter discussions of the past, uh, two years or so remind me on that comic strips, where some folks of a certain potion-buffed tribe take their shields both handed swinging over their heads to beat the hell out of one of the Romans each. Surely a helluva fun, but it lacks a certain elegance and art, and it fails miserably if the potion buff runs out.

[Zingydex]

The inherent knockback is hardly a good thing for a melee fighter who would then need to close that distance to finish the job, and Smite's stun is negligible unless you focus your attacks exclusively on one monster (speaking from experience again). How exactly does that offer any value toward crowd control?

[Doc]

Step 1. Hire rogue.

Step 2. Find a bow, stuff with gems or runes of appropriate level.

Step 3. Run around some of the underground areas in act 1 for a while, looking for jewels, like jewels of joyfulness, or of envy. Make a suit of ringmail for Rouge with poison damage or 10 or so min damage.

Step 4. Try to keep up with rogue on her murderous rampage through normal and much of nightmare. Smite stuff that threatens her.

Step 5. Pick up all of the gold piles and items left behind from your rogue's kills, and buy her better stuff as the situation allows. With a lucky gamble in your low 20s, you can get a circlet with 100 or so lightning damage, or some serious cold or fire damage. Run Countess for some Ith runes and stuff those in a long war bow or something. +27 to max damage nothing to sneeze about.

With the exception of bosses, Smiters are the most powerful when tanking for somebody or something else and keeping them safe.

[coyote]

be more power-orientated : create a smiter/zealer Hybrid :)

layout like : 20 Fana
20 HS
5-10 Zeal
5-10 Smite

the trick while smiting is CB and "auto-hit" - so you dont really need insane dmg, though it helps. as for me, so im using Zeal while getting to Bosses, then smite´em^_^

pure smiter is quite a dedication since you cant attack multiple targets...

hope could help ya B)

[librarian]

Heiho,

The inherent knockback is hardly a good thing for a melee fighter who would then need to close that distance to finish the job, and Smite's stun is negligible unless you focus your attacks exclusively on one monster (speaking from experience again). How exactly does that offer any value toward crowd control?

http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite01.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite02.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite03.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite04.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite05.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite06.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite07.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite08.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite09.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite10.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite11.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite12.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite13.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite14.jpg
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/smite15.jpg

Maybe I've to apologize for having the boss pack thinned out before the series to get appropriate time to take prints. Also it took a while to get rid of my Rogue, the poor child. Further I'd have to apologize for running Conviction, but since it's a Cleric, not a Smiter (Smite sLvl8 with adders, made the series in NM diff), there was no reason for using another aura except for circumstances which would lead away from topic.
And finally I'd maybe have to apologize for the complete absence of LT charges (they're for weenies), the usage of a non-damage scepter (it's a HoBL) and, indeed, the lack of any CB gear (he wears none due to being a mage character).

So there was this boss with two of his minions left * and the best thing here ** is giving each of the opponents a whack and take on the next one immediately. In fact after minions had their rest the boss was KB'd away a good deal, so I've found myself confronted with another two baddies. So rinse and repeat with happy feet. Of course I could've focussed on the boss and let the other two guys happily hack away at me. I don't think this would be a good idea with low damage, but YMMV.
That's what I call crowd control here.


Of course, because of being a mage, when I don't give a show for others I either run still Conviction to assist my Rogue or low Holy Freeze, when everything becomes a real mess.
Looks more like this then:
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/cler...F_SmiteLIPI.jpg
(note the guy is PI/LI, so it was a Rogue-only job here)
or
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/cleric/cler...iteInfector.jpg










* BTW here would be the advertising for Conversion, which is still the best crowd control skill the Pal has. But since we're discussing mainly a lowish starter guy it's maybe too early to bring in that one.
** besides using the main attack FoH in this case. Well I've got carried away again ^^

[bigeyedbug]

The inherent knockback is hardly a good thing for a melee fighter who would then need to close that distance to finish the job, and Smite's stun is negligible unless you focus your attacks exclusively on one monster (speaking from experience again). How exactly does that offer any value toward crowd control?

librarian already answered this at least 15000 times better than I could, but as a sidenote, I found a KB weapon on Zeal itself to be useful in more situations than it was inconvenient. My experience is skewed though because it's not very extensive--I've only played the one pally--and because I went the 2H route.

If I *had* been using a shield though, Smite would have gotten a lot of consideration for crowd control duty.

Does not Bash and Stun combined in one skill just scream "Crowwwd Controooollll!"? :w00t: Particularly on a character class that doesn't have a lot of other options for it?

Well, I guess most people ignore Bash and Stun too.;)

[librarian]

Heiho,

Well, I guess most people ignore Bash and Stun too.;)

the Act5 hirelings don't. Given the fact they're, from a technical view, indeed bots they act quite clever.

[Doc]

I have had maxed bash and stun on a hammer barb.

It is a subtle sort of power, not to be ignored.

It is a lot of fun to smack something with a big ol battle hammer and have it actually seeing stars for a few minutes.

The best part is, if you have a barb merc, and position your self right, and get lucky, you can bounce Hellphatso back and forth between you and your merc with bash, sort of like Smiter Volleyball back in classic days, when two smiters could bounce him back and forth and have their way with him. That was a scary bit of fun.

[mikeandroe]

That's what I call crowd control here.

Does not Bash and Stun combined in one skill just scream "Crowwwd Controooollll!"?

Where the heck are you guys on the Basin when I'm the only one passionately defending melee skills as "crowd control"??? :P

Oh, and kudo's to Librarian for neatly displaying the crowd control capabilities of Smite. I had always preferred Zeal for it's "hit multiple enemies in sequence" aspects of crowd control, and never gave much thought to Smite. You, sir, have given me a whole new outlook. :ph34r:



IRT: Zyr.
Given all the paladins I've played, I wish I had some "young smiter" advice for you. However, I've never played a "Smiter". I have, otoh, played a number of pallies that used their one pre-req point in Smite as a backup skill.

Two points I will make....

1) I don't see that much of a difference between "maxed Smite" and "1 in Smite +adders" especially when it comes to the ubers. Yes, indeed, you need raw damage to finish the job once CB's effectiveness ends. However, given that the bulk of your Smite damage is going to come from Holy Shield, I think it's more a matter of preference than necessity to max Smite.

2) Given the spare points you have floating around, you could drop 1 in Sacrifice and 4 in Zeal, and spend most of your young life as a Zealot. In addition to giving you a viable attack, it will also enable you to leech if/when necessary, and still capitalize on your planned investments in Fanat and Holy Shield. Best of all, it will work for you later on just as well as it does early on.

Alternatively, you could shop a +3 Holy Fire Scepter, and combine that with the Normal attack if you're bristling at the thought of pointing Zeal. Obviously, this solution is much more short term than pointing Zeal, but it will definitely carry you through early normal.

[Dirsch]

Greetings and Salutations,

I have been playing D2X for a long time now on and off as well, but only in this week that I have become interested in building a smiter. After searching and reading on dozens of posts regarding smiters, I have never once seen advice on how to level and deal with crowds.

So I have decided to build one using only smite, no zeal for crowd killing (I consider crowd killing to be different from crowd control). So the question is how to deal smite to multiple enemies. After some pondering, I decided to try what I have previously learned about how to use frenzy to target monsters when you are moving very quickly, and the solution is to assign the skill to use the right move button (RMB). I applied the same to smite, lo and behold, smite became an awesome crowd control and crowd killing skill, which I dubbed auto-smite.

Due to the way that the mouse button, key shortcut and skills can be assigned in game, it would be impossible to have an aura active when you auto-smite, which at first glance seems to be a very big negative. In actual play however, this disadvantage isn't so great as it seems.

So, the Auraless was born. From level 1 to 43, all skill points were assigned to smite holy shield and prereqs, until smite and holy shield are maxed. No auras whatsoever.
Pure smiter, no zeal and it worked out amazingly. I used Khalim's will and a spiked shield to level, then switched to a Steel scimatar and Swordback hold. Diablo dropped a General's Tan Do Li Ga, which I use on my weapon switch for use versus bosses.

When auto-smiting, the computer picks the target nearest to you that is within range of your weapon and will virtually never miss, you will miss only if the target is moving away or sometimes sideways from you. The knockback feature of smite is an perfect match for auto-smiting. Smite one enemy, it gets knocked away, then the next closest gets smited and knocks back and so forth. In practice, this works out great, you can smite behind obstructions like walls or buildings, enter a dungeon door or a stair trap ready to auto-smite anything that tries to ambush you, letting them say hello to your shield. Sometimes I even auto-smite with my eyes closed. IMO, no other skill in the game can remotely take advantage of the unique combination of smite and the auto targeting capability of the RMB, I have even tried to do the same with bash, stun w/ KB, maul with KB, but none even comes close, because none of those skills is auto-hit.

I have been playing in SP, purely as an experiment to see its effectiveness and so far it has been a cakewalk, even swarms like dozens of flayers (which is very hard to target one by one due to their size) is easily rendered harmless. Lister and co. which is usually a tough fight for meleers is a walk in the park, with all his minions deactivated, you only need to fight Lister, then take them down one at a time.

With auto-smiting being so effective I am hesitant in building up fanaticism as a primary aura, as it seems to be unnecessary to use a supplementary aura. I am trying to see how far I can go using just auto-smite without any damage boosting aura, as the tradeoff between boosting damage vs. losing the ability to auto-smite is a tough decision now that I have tasted the power of auto-smite.

So, to summarize the pros and cons of auto-smite vs. single-smite:
Pros: auto-hit, auto-knockback, auto-target, crowd control, crowd killing
Cons: no auras

You decide.

[bigeyedbug]

Where the heck are you guys on the Basin when I'm the only one passionately defending melee skills as "crowd control"??? :P

If Zeal had inherent KB or Stun, or a number of other interesting properties that it does not, I'd be right there with you.:P

I think there is some justice to your arguments about it, but for me the point stretches the definition of "crowd control" past my personal threshhold of what makes the definition useful. YMM--and obviously does--V.

[librarian]

Heiho,

Where the heck are you guys on the Basin when I'm the only one passionately defending melee skills as "crowd control"???

can't speak up for BeB here, but as far as I'm concerned I'm a bit tired. The game is six years old, and I'm registered at various boards since five years. I was all tactics after a year or so, but nowadays with all that common gear it seems it is no longer needed, when all you've got to do is taping your mouse button.

Also I'd second BeB with the plain 'not every melee skill is exactly what I call a crowd control skill' message ;-)

@Dirsch
That is a very good one, I haven't seen that approach for virtually ages.
Sadly, you'll definitively lack damage without a damage booster Aura in Hell difficulty. Back in 1.09 I had a pure Smiter (Fanaticism) with company of a Prayer guy. I had to switch my aura sometimes, because I even then refused to shop a LT wand, so Redemption was it. In Hell I dismissed the Prayer guy with much regret, but the Mighty guy gave my shield the extra punch needed when I couldn't run Fana for one reason or another.
Given the fact that monster life in 1.1x is much higher than before smiting in Hell without any damage booster aura would stretch my patience too far.
<edit>
'smiting' as in 'main skill', of course I'll further smite everything away with it as backup or crowd control skill ;-)
</edit>

[Dirsch]

Greetings and Salutations,

Librarian, looking at the numbers you are quite right that the damage numbers won't stack up in hell without an aura unless you have some uber runewords like grief. But this does not in any way diminish the utility of this skill in the very least. For one, auto-smite would be the perfect way to level up a young smiter, it only begins to lose its edge by mid-nightmare to hell, depending on the number of players. For those early levels smite+holy shield alone is more than enough to bring up those damage numbers even without an aura even with poor gear. For a single technique that can be used all the way up from normal to nightmare, or 2/3 of the game, it has paid for itself in full and then some.

In hell however, mindlessly auto-smiting will no longer work because damage is lacking without an aura, but with the judicious use of skill switching, one can use auto-smite to control the crowd, then switching to an aura on the RMB, while continuing to use single-smiting on the LMB. Switching techniques in this way allows you to have both great crowd control and an aura damage boost. You can have your cake and eat it too.

Even the lack of an aura can be augmented with the right equipment that adds damage to smite such as the redeemer, astreon's or grief so that smite damage is increased sufficient enough even for hell. Alternately, the might merc can be chosen as an external source of aura damage. Enough crushing blow can even obviate the need for massive raw smite damage.

[Zyr]

Thanks to each of you for your insights.:) NobleExperiment has bested Diablo, and is now starting Act V at level 27.

At 15, I charmed his Dex up to use a Throwing Spear of Ease, and at 16 he was sufficiently Dextrous to wield a Massive Throwing Spear, which served him well until level 21. At that point, I switched to Zeal with a Malice Grand Scepter with +1 Zeal. I might have pursued a better one, but by the time I found this scepter I had already bought another with two sockets and +3 Zeal. He has +1 All Skills from Tarnhelm, and four hit Zeal was quite sufficient to take him to the Travincal WP at level 24.

At that point, I decided to experiment with Smite, even though the damage from his Heraldic Shield as shown on the LCS was still paltry compared to the other available options. NobleExperiment Smote his way from Stormtree through a full clear of Lower Kurast, the Bazaar, and both Temples, while wielding the Malice Grand Scepter, taking a most unholy delight in watching Smitten, stunned monsters bleed to death from single hits.:D

At level 25, NE was joined by my son's Werebear. He switched to the Strength Grand Scepter and Zeal for the Council and Mephisto, but Smote other monsters with the Malice Grand Scepter. He soloed with Smite to the City of the Damned WP, switching to the Strength weapon for Izual (but sticking with Smite rather than Zeal). From the CoD WP to the RoF, I had the pleasure of playing with my son and my grandson together for the first time ever.:wub: NE stuck with Smite and Malice except for Hephasto, whom he Smote with Strength.

A Snowy Balanced Knife of Storms enabled NobleExperiment to avoid any risk from IM, and he soloed the Chaos Sanctuary cautiously but quickly.B) He Smote Diablo while wielding the Strength Grand Scepter.

@ Doc: NE's faithful, fierce, and fiery companion so far has been Tylena, whose gear since level 12 has included a Short Battle Bow with a flawed Sapphire and a pair of standard Rubies and a gemmed BP giving her +7 max damage and 2-6 Cold damage. At 16, she received a circlet with +3 minimum damage. I'm a total twinker within the limits of my means, and normally my Rogues are much better equipped by this point (typically with an Edge Razor or Double Bow and much more damage from hat and armor). However, Tylena is still so effective that I haven't felt a strong need to improve her gear. I will likely switch to a Prayer merc when NE hits 28, mainly because I have a +16 Meditation ethereal Insight Partizan sitting idle on a mule.

@ librarian: Thank you very much for the screen shots.:) I opened each of them in separate tabs, so I could view them as a slide show. My later experience replicated yours, with the added bonus of not needing to re-Smite many monsters, thanks to OW.

@ Dirsch: Thank you very much for your insights into the possibilities of auraless auto-Smiting. I have used auto-attacking extensively with Dragon Talon Assassins, Spearazons, melee Javazons, and melee Enchantresses. In fact, the Paladin's inability to auto-attack with an aura active has been as big a factor in my reluctance to play the class as the lack of a summonable minion. It may well be that Malice's 100% OW, combined with Smite's 100% CtH, could make auto-Smiting effective even in Hell. I'll be aggressively searching for a three-socket Phase Blade...

My first attempts at slvl 2 Conversion did not excite me. However, since my previous post I've gambled +3 Combat Skills hat and amulet for NE, and I have an otherwise useless-to-me Gul which will no doubt find its way into a Principle. I'll evaluate Conversion further when +skills items can boost its level.

Thanks again for all the help.:)

[Zyr]

Update: NobleExperiment soloed all of Nightmare, primarily as an auraless Malicious Auto-Smiter™, and has begun his adventures in Hell. Executive summary: Dirsch has it exactly right.

I leveled NE to 49 in Normal Minion runs before killing Baal. His gear when he started NM included a blue +3 Combat Skills circlet, rare +1 Paladin Skills amulet, Goblin Toe, Blood crafted gloves with 20% IAS and 8% Crushing Blow, and Blood crafted belt with 9% Open Wounds. His primary weapon/shield combination was a Malice Cinquedeas with a Rhyme Akaran Targe (54% Resist all); on switch, he used a Black Flail with a rare Royal shield giving +1 Paladin Skills and 48% Resist all. This gear remained unchanged through NM. At level 53, he received a Principle Wyrmhide armor. Smite and Holy Shield were both maxed when he started NM, with all points earned in NM going into Fanaticism until it was maxed; points since then have been saved.

Since he was level 28, NE has been accompanied by Vikhyat, an Act II Prayer specialist wielding the ethereal +16 Meditation Insight Partizan mentioned in my previous post. An ethereal Face of Horror gave him the Str to equip the Partizan at level 27; his armor is Boneflesh.

Auraless, Malicious auto-smiting proved a very effective way to solo NM in two-player games (on US West SCL, with another character idle in the game on a second computer). By Act IV, a single Smite was not enough to kill, even with Open Wounds. However, with 33% CB, two or three hits with the shield was usually sufficient to dispatch a monster. NobleExperiment switched to Fanaticism with the 73% CB Black Flail combination only for Act bosses, Izual, and the occasional high-HP random Unique monster. He threw Arcing Balanced Knives (1-351 Lightning damage) in the Chaos Sanctuary, with Fanaticism active; no Knights were encountered in the WSK.

After dispatching NM Baal at level 67 or 68, NE's resistances were insufficient for Hell. I delayed his first foray into the Hell Blood Moor until his level 85 elder sister, StickToYourRibs, had supplied him with a gambled rare Coronet affording +2 Combat Skills, 19% Resist all, 54% Fire resistance, and 17 Str, and a 43% Resist all Protector shield which fell in The Pit. The temptation was strong to make Spirit in the shield. I resisted (:P) the temptation, because NE's ultimate objective is Uber Tristram, where resistances are of paramount importance; another shield that good might not come his way. I stuffed it with four PDiamonds for 119% Resist all. He was also able to start Hell with a Malice Phase Blade, thanks to Relic's generosity.:)

In hell however, mindlessly auto-smiting will no longer work because damage is lacking without an aura, but with the judicious use of skill switching, one can use auto-smite to control the crowd, then switching to an aura on the RMB, while continuing to use single-smiting on the LMB. Switching techniques in this way allows you to have both great crowd control and an aura damage boost. You can have your cake and eat it too.

NobleExperiment's early adventures in Hell confirm Dirsch's statements in every detail. Auraless auto-smiting with the Protector Shield (536-999 damage, avg 767) is insufficient to kill anything within a reasonable time except Foul Crows. However, it is invaluable for quickly stunning four or five monsters, starting them bleeding with Malice's Open Wounds, and preventing them from regenerating with Malice's PMH. Once they're stunned, it's much easier for me to switch to Fanaticism and target them with left clicks, using either the Malice / Protector Shield combination ( 906-1686 damage, avg 1296; 33% CB) or the Black / Rhyme Akaran Targe combination (926-999 damage, avg 962; 73% CB). (For Act bosses, obviously I'll use Black with the Protector Shield, unless another high resistance elite shield comes my way.)

NobleExperiment has already encountered a couple of PI Stone Skin bosses. While Open Wounds can slowly dispatch such monsters once they've taken damage, Smite's refusal to transmit elemental or poison damage makes them difficult opponents for a Smiter. However, the Cold, Poison, and Lightning damage on Vikhyat's Insight enables him to break the physical immunity; the 25% OW from Boneflesh allows the Desert Warrior to bleed such monsters, while NE keeps them stunned and stationary.



It's not fast, but it's fun.:D

My thanks again to all who've contributed their experiences to this thread. Special thanks to Librarian for the slide show, and to Dirsch, whose predictions NobleExperiment has confirmed.B)

[-Aerows-]

Wow, this thread made me want to start a Smiter. In fact, I think I will right now:).