Tankadin?

[ima_nerd]

With my obligatory MF Sorc up and running for my 4th or 5th restart in D2, now I get to make some fun characters:)The first thing that caught my interest was a tanking Zealadin. I think I have a general idea of what to do but extra input is always appreciated. I want to concentrate on damage absorption more than damage output.

Build:
20 Holy Shield
20 Defiance
20 Fanat
20 Zeal
Remaining points in Sacrifice or spread around the aura trees

Stats:
Really not sure here. I'd need an idea of what gear I'll have for how much Strength to get and then enough Dexterity to be able to hit stuff and the rest in Vitality. Definitely need some input on this one.

Gear:
I don't have too much since I just started up but with my Sorc chewing up Hell Meph, most uniques are available given enough time. I have a Shaftstop, a Vampiric Gaze and a Bloodmoon as of right now that really say "Paladin!" to me. Runes are iffy at best, not myself or anyone I'm playing with can Hell rush yet so Forge runs aren't an option.

I'm planning on this being the character I take to 99 with the friends I'm playing with. Therefore, he's going to be spending a lot of time in the Chaos Sanctuary (it is better than Hell Baal for experience, isn't it?). I thought about making a Smiter but that really seems like a 1 point wonder once I get some +skills on.

[gekko]

Take points away from defiance and put them into resist fire, cold and lightning. Every two hard points invested in each of those skills increases your maximum resistance to that element by 1%. When you activate one of those auras, your maximum resistance to that element jumps by 1% per skill point.

The reason this is so important is because physical damage is rarely what you should be concerned about nowadays. With a decent shield and a good level holy shield, you'll still have a very high defence and easily will obtain 75% block. Adding defence beyond that is only reducing what is already a pretty small number. On the other hand, going from 75% to 95% resistance to fire, lightning and cold (doable if you add maybe a guardian angel armor, for example) drops your damage to those elemental attacks from 1/4 to 1/20. That's a big reduction.

The logical next step to this build is to take advantage of the other bonus of pumping those resistance auras. Each hard point also gives a passive bonus elemental damage to elemental. So pump conviction, put a few points in vengeance, and stop worrying about any resistance or immunity the game can throw at you.

Zeal is still important for times when you lack mana or need a little more crowd control. But with 75% block and 80%+ resist all, crowd control ceases to be a real concern - most of the time.

If you really want the defence boost, you're better off hiring a defiance merc. And once you have your resist auras and vengeance at the level you want, you can also add more to defiance to pick up a little more of a passive defence bonus.

gekko

[ima_nerd]

-snip-

gekko

Ok, thanks. I was thinking about my available gear earlier and the resist problem did come to mind. A friend found a Guardian Angel and I can probably yoink that for myself. Would it be worth getting Salvation instead since I'll already have 90 max resists? Obsidian Knights have the various elemental attacks so it may be worth it since I'll only have a few points in it and the individual auras don't trump Salvation until the end. This would also free up points to spread out in other auras.

Any other advice welcome:)

[gekko]

Ok, thanks. I was thinking about my available gear earlier and the resist problem did come to mind. A friend found a Guardian Angel and I can probably yoink that for myself. Would it be worth getting Salvation instead since I'll already have 90 max resists? Obsidian Knights have the various elemental attacks so it may be worth it since I'll only have a few points in it and the individual auras don't trump Salvation until the end. This would also free up points to spread out in other auras.

Any other advice welcome:)

My paladin has a point in salvation and 10 hard points in each resist aura. With Guardian Angel armor, this gives him 95% resist all in hell (obviously plenty of resist all equipment/charms are also needed). Even that extra 5% increase cuts elemental damage in half - 1/10th to 1/20th. The points in the resist auras also give more of a bonus to vengeance damage - although you have to spread those points around. I also found that as long as I was quick on the draw, switching between specific resist auras was better for myself, my merc and my party than using salvation.

Putting points in salvation over the resist auras only makes sense if you will regularly actively use salvation. Otherwise the resist auras offer more, giving both the passive boost to max resistance and more of a damage bonus to vengeance.

gekko

[ima_nerd]

-snip-

gekko

Well, I don't know if I would really want to use Vengeance that much since, unless I'm mistaken, Zeal would take better advantage of my life leech. If I were to put more points in the resist auras I could do something like this:
20 Zeal
20 Holy Shield
10 each resist
10? Defiance
XX Sacrifice plus some other auras

Now, my question is this: Is Zeal even worth it without Fanat running? If not, I'll go a hardcore Vengeance Pally, maxing all the resist auras and whatnot. Another question is the Defiance synergy. I wouldn't have it running so is it worth saving points for it or should I just drop points in once I get everything else? I plan on having a Defiance merc (hopefully one that is tough enough to stay alive*).

*On this subject, is a high-ish (310% ED) Bonehew worthy for an endgame merc? The top end damage is ridiculous (594) and the 2 sockets could be nicely filled with 2 PSkulls. If not this, what obtainable item would be ideal?

[gekko]

Well, I don't know if I would really want to use Vengeance that much since, unless I'm mistaken, Zeal would take better advantage of my life leech. If I were to put more points in the resist auras I could do something like this:
20 Zeal
20 Holy Shield
10 each resist
10? Defiance
XX Sacrifice plus some other auras

Now, my question is this: Is Zeal even worth it without Fanat running? If not, I'll go a hardcore Vengeance Pally, maxing all the resist auras and whatnot. Another question is the Defiance synergy. I wouldn't have it running so is it worth saving points for it or should I just drop points in once I get everything else? I plan on having a Defiance merc (hopefully one that is tough enough to stay alive*).

*On this subject, is a high-ish (310% ED) Bonehew worthy for an endgame merc? The top end damage is ridiculous (594) and the 2 sockets could be nicely filled with 2 PSkulls. If not this, what obtainable item would be ideal?

Even when I run zeal, I run conviction. Maxed conviction + zeal + a high elemental damage weapon means you will hit virtually every strike (conviction absolutely destroys enemy defence and is much more effective than boosting AR through fanat or maxing zeal) and any elemental damage is hugely multiplied (enemies without resistance to an element suddenly have negative resists, enemies with high resists are dropped to or near zero). If you go the conviction route, you either need to go the vengeance route or go after elemental damage rather than physical damage. Either way works. I'm a fan of vengeance because it goes just so well with conviction.

Don't put any points (beyond the first to work down the tree) unless you've already maxed holy shield. Holy shield actually increases total defence, not just shield defence like you might think. So there is no reason to increase defiance unless you want to run defiance (just get a defiance merc) or you're after the passive bonus. If you are after the bonus, holy shield is still a better investment because it also gives a longer duration to HS and the same defence bonus.

Bonehew is better than anything I've used on my pally's mercs. I tend not to rely on mercs with melee oriented characters. I doubt you'll have an issue with that weapon though.

gekko

[ima_nerd]

-snipe-

gekko

Ok, here's my idea:
20 Holy Shield
20 Vengeance
20 Conviction
10 resist auras
XX prereqs

Grab a Defiance merc, run Conviction when I'm killing and resist auras when I'm tanking. Is that a pretty standard Vengeance build?

[gekko]

Ok, here's my idea:
20 Holy Shield
20 Vengeance
20 Conviction
10 resist auras
XX prereqs

Grab a Defiance merc, run Conviction when I'm killing and resist auras when I'm tanking. Is that a pretty standard Vengeance build?

Tough to go wrong with that. Max vengeance last. You need plenty of physical damage and mana leech to sustain a level 20+ vengeance attack. A few seconds of meditation or redemption will fill you up quick, but you don't want to have to switch auras if you're in the middle of a pack of moon lords.

If you don't have access to a weapon with both high physical and elemental damaage, focus on elemental damage and keep vengeance low. I use a gimmershed. It's fast, the physical damage is decent if not through the roof, and the added elemental damage is terrific. I've also had luck with Nord's Tenderizer, Lightsaber, even Baraner's Star. Heck, when you get right down to it a 6 socketed crystal sword packed with gems or elemental damage jewels would work.

Enjoy your build and good luck. Just remember, you're not invincible. I experimented with a defiance merc but ended up going with holy freeze. I found slowed enemies kept the both of us safer than a higher defence.

gekko

[Munkay]

I've been lurking while this post has been building back and forth, and I must say thanks for the advice Gekko. I just lost my SP HC avenger due to a nasty battle, and have been fiddling around with trying a new setup/take on the melee paladin. Your posts have made a lot of sense, and like ima_nerd will check out this type of build.

I must admit, when you first mentioned using Gimmershed I was a bit taken back, but looking at it again it looks like a very fitting weapon. I'll have to poke around my stash and check it out for myself. Till then a freshly dropped Nord's will do just fine:)

Sorry I can't personally add anything more to the post ima_nerd, but I do thank you for creating it:)

Cheers,

Munk

[ima_nerd]

Tough to go wrong with that. Max vengeance last. You need plenty of physical damage and mana leech to sustain a level 20+ vengeance attack. A few seconds of meditation or redemption will fill you up quick, but you don't want to have to switch auras if you're in the middle of a pack of moon lords.

If you don't have access to a weapon with both high physical and elemental damaage, focus on elemental damage and keep vengeance low. I use a gimmershed. It's fast, the physical damage is decent if not through the roof, and the added elemental damage is terrific. I've also had luck with Nord's Tenderizer, Lightsaber, even Baraner's Star. Heck, when you get right down to it a 6 socketed crystal sword packed with gems or elemental damage jewels would work.

Enjoy your build and good luck. Just remember, you're not invincible. I experimented with a defiance merc but ended up going with holy freeze. I found slowed enemies kept the both of us safer than a higher defence.

gekko

Ok, here's a little update on my Avenger's progress. He's level 40 and anxious to enter Nightmare but I'll probably keep him in Normal for a bit longer. I've got Holy Shield at level 10 and with my so-so gear (some small IK pieces, The Ward shield etc) I'm pushing 3k defense. I have Vengeance at 11 but taking your advice, Gekko, I'll start putting more points into Conviction and the resist auras. One question about Vengeance. When it says does X% fire/coldghtning damage is that based off how much physical damage you do or does it increase the elemental damage you do already by X%? I've been using Jade Ton Do (crap physical damage but 180 poison over 4 seconds) and I don't have any physical damage weapons available at the moment so I haven't been able to test it.

Glad I could indirectly be of service, Munkay:)

[gekko]

Ok, here's a little update on my Avenger's progress. He's level 40 and anxious to enter Nightmare but I'll probably keep him in Normal for a bit longer. I've got Holy Shield at level 10 and with my so-so gear (some small IK pieces, The Ward shield etc) I'm pushing 3k defense. I have Vengeance at 11 but taking your advice, Gekko, I'll start putting more points into Conviction and the resist auras. One question about Vengeance. When it says does X% fire/coldghtning damage is that based off how much physical damage you do or does it increase the elemental damage you do already by X%? I've been using Jade Ton Do (crap physical damage but 180 poison over 4 seconds) and I don't have any physical damage weapons available at the moment so I haven't been able to test it.

Glad I could indirectly be of service, Munkay:)

Vengeance explanation:

Let's say you had a weapon that did exactly 100 points of physical damage, and your vengeance was at a level that added +100% fire/coldghtning damage. You would deal your normal physical damage (weapon damage + strength bonus etc) plus 100 points of EACH elemental damage - 100 fire, 100 cold and 100 lightning. Vengeance does not boost any other forms of elemental damage you do (charms, jewels, etc), which is another reason why conviction is a better skill to boost than vengeance.

gekko

[ima_nerd]

Vengeance explanation:

Let's say you had a weapon that did exactly 100 points of physical damage, and your vengeance was at a level that added +100% fire/coldghtning damage. You would deal your normal physical damage (weapon damage + strength bonus etc) plus 100 points of EACH elemental damage - 100 fire, 100 cold and 100 lightning. Vengeance does not boost any other forms of elemental damage you do (charms, jewels, etc), which is another reason why conviction is a better skill to boost than vengeance.

gekko

Thanks. I hit 42 and equipped my Atlantean and for the first time really saw how powerful Vengeance is. The list damage is about 1000 but I suppose with Conviction it adds up to a bit more. I was able to one and two shot my way through NM A1 (except Andy, of course). I found myself using Zeal in tough fights for the leech. Vengeance just doesn't keep me alive well enough and my defenses aren't strong enough to compensate. All in good time:)

[Munkay]

Thanks. I hit 42 and equipped my Atlantean and for the first time really saw how powerful Vengeance is. The list damage is about 1000 but I suppose with Conviction it adds up to a bit more. I was able to one and two shot my way through NM A1 (except Andy, of course). I found myself using Zeal in tough fights for the leech. Vengeance just doesn't keep me alive well enough and my defenses aren't strong enough to compensate. All in good time:)

After reading Gekko's post I began fiddling around with my paladin in Act 5 Hell. After making a char backup, I played around with the skill points and tried out the build. All in all, it's definitely a solid build. Using a Nord's Tenderizer I was able to survive rather well. As both of you have mentioned, Leech is incredibly important when using vengeance - 18% life leech wasn't sufficient in any tight situations. The +defense bonus of Holy shield is incredibly useful, not to mention the +% chance to block to gives. With around 8k Def and 70% chance to block, Hell was very much viable. It's a slow road, and big packs do cause problems here and there, but its definitely a fun build.

I'd put the build on par with a crushing blow zealot. A crushing blow zealot with a fast weapon can benefit much more from leech and stick around a bit longer, but it isn't nearly as fulfilling as slugging it out one swing at a time on an avenger.

Oh, and if you decide just for kicks to try out elite polearms or bows, I'll tell you right now they are not good ideas :lol:

Cheers,

Munk

[gekko]

After reading Gekko's post I began fiddling around with my paladin in Act 5 Hell. After making a char backup, I played around with the skill points and tried out the build. All in all, it's definitely a solid build. Using a Nord's Tenderizer I was able to survive rather well. As both of you have mentioned, Leech is incredibly important when using vengeance - 18% life leech wasn't sufficient in any tight situations. The +defense bonus of Holy shield is incredibly useful, not to mention the +% chance to block to gives. With around 8k Def and 70% chance to block, Hell was very much viable. It's a slow road, and big packs do cause problems here and there, but its definitely a fun build.

I'd put the build on par with a crushing blow zealot. A crushing blow zealot with a fast weapon can benefit much more from leech and stick around a bit longer, but it isn't nearly as fulfilling as slugging it out one swing at a time on an avenger.

Oh, and if you decide just for kicks to try out elite polearms or bows, I'll tell you right now they are not good ideas :lol:

Cheers,

Munk

When this build really shines is when you party with other characters. Sorcs and javazons in particular. Maxed conviction simply destroys enemy resistances. The majority of enemy immunities disapear, as well.

Like any melee based build, the power of this build is very much proportional to the equipment you have available. However, this build can handle itself even with fairly obtainable stuff.

Just for kicks though, it can be fun to consider this kind of success [amazonbasin]. 8% chance to be it, 75% chance to block, 95% resist all. Pretty darned near indestructible.

My avenger has nowhere near that kind of strength and none of the really hard to find equipment that that one has. I do have more points in vitality though, which helps.

Another piece of advice that I remembered: pick up any and all rejuvination potions you can, and cube them into fulls. This is really smart for any characters, but melee characters really need to remember it. One of the reasons I haven't died with this character is that I tend to keep one row of red potions and 3 rows full of full rejuvinations. And I'm not afraid to use them. Better to waste a potion than to die.

gekko

[ima_nerd]

So far, I think our main group will be a Fanat Zealot, Elemental Druid, Lightning Sorc, myself and one undetermined. Having both Fanat and Conviction will be fun for the other Pally and I and the Elemental Druid and Lightning Sorc will have a field day with Conviction. 99 here I come:D

Just for kicks though, it can be fun to consider this kind of success [amazonbasin]. 8% chance to be it, 75% chance to block, 95% resist all. Pretty darned near indestructible.

I suppose I could theoretically achieve that with my MF Sorc running on Meph and once we start farming Hell Diablo but I find it unlikely. I'll be content with nearly indestructible:)

Thanks for all the help, gekko. I'll continue to update with progress and any more questions I may have.

[Munkay]

Great link Gekko. I've been exploring the pages of AB the last week or so, such a wealth of information it's rather incredible. Not to mention absolutely ridiculous reads like The Poorman.

One of the reasons I haven't died with this character is that I tend to keep one row of red potions and 3 rows full of full rejuvinations. And I'm not afraid to use them. Better to waste a potion than to die.

Words to live by - pun intended. It took me a few HC deaths before I smartened up. Now I keep 2 rows of a belt full, and always keep a stock of full rejuvs in stash for major battles.

Cheers,

Munk

[Munkay]

So far, I think our main group will be a Fanat Zealot, Elemental Druid, Lightning Sorc, myself and one undetermined. Having both Fanat and Conviction will be fun for the other Pally and I and the Elemental Druid and Lightning Sorc will have a field day with Conviction. 99 here I come:D

Although it's bound to be overkill (since you'll have two lightening based attackers), a suggestion for the undetermined, a Lightning Fury Javazon could kill at exceptional speeds with fanat/conviction. The baddies won't stand a chance.

Cheers,

Munk

[ima_nerd]

Great link Gekko. I've been exploring the pages of AB the last week or so, such a wealth of information it's rather incredible. Not to mention absolutely ridiculous reads like The Poorman.

Yes! I read that just the other night. That was really incredible.

Although it's bound to be overkill (since you'll have two lightening based attackers), a suggestion for the undetermined, a Lightning Fury Javazon could kill at exceptional speeds with fanat/conviction. The baddies won't stand a chance.

Cheers,

Munk

The undecided may end up being a Bowazon which will be nice for some physical damage that won't get rocked by IM:P

[Munkay]

The undecided may end up being a Bowazon which will be nice for some physical damage that won't get rocked by IM:P

Not a bad choice at all. Hopefully they'll make liberal use of the amazons favorite party skill: Decoy. Well placed decoys can make tough areas easy as pie.

Looks like you guys will be making swiss cheese in CS baddies in no time:)

Cheers,

Munk