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Quote:AB favors Alliance. The path from the Arathor base to the Stables flag is shorter than the path from the Defilers base to the Farm flag, and Paladins and their immunity bubbles can hold solo-hold a node longer than any other class in the game.
WSG slightly favors Horde. The Horde base has a little better visibility than the Alliance base. Both bases have sneaky hiding spots involving clipping. Horde can pit stupid Allies in a ditch behind a giant tree south of the Alliance exit portal.
I disagree on AB. The trick to AB is not ST/Farm. It is controlling BS. I believe Horde has a shorter track to it. In my games (and it's been a lot of games lately), Horde gets to BS about 2 seconds before Alliance, and they usually end up controlling it about 80-85% of the time. Coincidentally (or not) they end up winning almost all of those games. BS is the most important node as it is in the middle and raised, and gives you almost a bird's eye view of the whole battlefield, so you can call INC for ST, LM and Farm from one side and Mine/ST/Farm from the other. Yesterday, we actually won one and did it by controlling BS. Afer we grabbed it, my game consisted of Shadowmeld/INC 4 LM/INC 5 BS-->Charge/INC many Farm etc etc etc. Easy win. Controlling BS is almost having an unfair advantage.
WSG, meh.... Alliance sucks at sticking together. If they did not, the tiny advantage that the Horde has would be nothing. The trick to WSG is NO DEFENSE!!! It should go like this.... All 10 go to Flag sticking close to one another. Ignore almost everything. Grab flag. All 10 go through the middle carrying the flag. On the way, kill everything on the way, and only ON THE WAY (ala Blitzkrieg), including the eventual enemy flag carrier for whom you can go out of your way, again as a team. As long as you stick together, you don't need any D (actually you don't WANT any D) and you can roll up any other team. I've had 2 occasions when this was illustrated well. I went through a nice stretch of getting into a game with a PVP guild, and it was 9 of them and me. We won 18 games in a row within maybe 3 hours. All but 1 were 3 caps. The one close game was against another guild team and they did pretty much the same. The other one was even better. I got into a PUG and we rolled up somewhere around 25 in a row also within 3-4 hours. All of the games were the same, as described above. Alas, this was before cross-realms, so now that would be impossible. Anyway, Defense is not for WSG if played properly. Of course, generally Alliance chases HKs and pretty much runs around aimlessly.
-A
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Well the reason these games are good is that there are a variety of winning stratagies.
In AB, a 3 base including the BS is a tough nut to crack. However a 2 second lead is nothing - one the inital capper gets disrupted (and he should if you are making a serious attempt at the BS) it's an even game. And it is very possible to overplay the BS and have your home base capped, which usually starts a chase around the ring.
In WSG, an all out rush is very possible to counter with an 8 man D.
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09-22-2006, 06:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2006, 06:31 PM by Ashock.)
Quote:Well the reason these games are good is that there are a variety of winning stratagies.
In AB, a 3 base including the BS is a tough nut to crack. However a 2 second lead is nothing - one the inital capper gets disrupted (and he should if you are making a serious attempt at the BS) it's an even game. And it is very possible to overplay the BS and have your home base capped, which usually starts a chase around the ring.
In WSG, an all out rush is very possible to counter with an 8 man D.
Well, 2 seconds is something if it's backed up by enough people.
As far as WSG, if there's 8 ppl on D, the game lasts forever. Neither side usually wants that. A turtle in AV at least nets nice Honor. In WSG it's just a waste of time. Besides, there's rushes and there's rushes. A controlled rush as I described is very difficult to counter and can only be done by an experienced team... and usually experienced teams want to end WSG ASAP.
-A
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Quote:Well, 2 seconds is something if it's backed up by enough people.
No. Assuming 7-10 vs 7-10 (minus 1 because one person is capping) there is zero chance that competent players can't get a single attack off in 8 sec. Then the mayhem ensues. I have mount equip, so it is impossible to move faster then me (I fully conceed that the horde have about a 2 second lead to the flag), and I can not remember a single time 5 people couldn't disrupt an inital tap at the BS.
Quote:As far as WSG, if there's 8 ppl on D, the game lasts forever. Neither side usually wants that. A controlled rush as I described is very difficult to counter and can only be done by an experienced team... and usually experienced teams want to end WSG ASAP.
Well there is defense and there is defense. 8 is enough to blunt the attack and probably hold them off the flag given the proximity of the GY. Then you ride out and meet up with your scoundrles who have made off with the flag, hopefully inbetween res pulses.
For a pretty good team playing not a very good team, your strat is probably best. If you really are trying to finish fast, you probably want to leave a couple behind to at least track the other side if they take off with your flag. On the return trip part of your O can peel off and head directly for your flag.
The point is an all out attack, while a viable strat especially against semi organized groups, is not the be all end all. WSG would be rather boring if it was.
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Quote:No. Assuming 7-10 vs 7-10 (minus 1 because one person is capping) there is zero chance that competent players can't get a single attack off in 8 sec. Then the mayhem ensues. I have mount equip, so it is impossible to move faster then me (I fully conceed that the horde have about a 2 second lead to the flag), and I can not remember a single time 5 people couldn't disrupt an inital tap at the BS.
Well there is defense and there is defense. 8 is enough to blunt the attack and probably hold them off the flag given the proximity of the GY. Then you ride out and meet up with your scoundrles who have made off with the flag, hopefully inbetween res pulses.
For a pretty good team playing not a very good team, your strat is probably best. If you really are trying to finish fast, you probably want to leave a couple behind to at least track the other side if they take off with your flag. On the return trip part of your O can peel off and head directly for your flag.
The point is an all out attack, while a viable strat especially against semi organized groups, is not the be all end all. WSG would be rather boring if it was.
If you have 10 ppl all going for the BS cap, then if one team gets a 2 sec head start, it means that they can all be there while the opposing team is still arriving. This means that let's say 8 (there's always those who lag a bit) of you can hit the 5 incoming that are already there. This is enough given equal teams to win the battle beforehand. The only way to counteact that is to have all 10 move at the same exact time and that, given a less than a real good team is simply not gonna happen.
As far as WSG, I'm sorry but my rather extensive WSG experience suggests otherwise. I simply do not see any weaknesses in an all out organized zerg, in theory and in practice. When you split up your team in any way, you lose against a team that sticks together.
YMMV, I suppose.
-A
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This is getting circular.
A two second headstart means one thing - if the horde wants it they can start the tap first. If there are a reasonable number of allies there, it is impossible to CC them all and preserve that first tap. A hunter can dismount 40yd out and arcane shot, a warrior can get off 25yd out and charge. Once the first tap is disrupted, that 2 second lead has been negated and it is open warfare. I have played my share of AB and gone blacksmith any number of times. I have never gotten that first tap off in a competitive game.
As far as your organized zerg goes.... that's why I wish they'd put in matchmaking. Saying that one strat is the best is like saying a huntress charge is the best in WC3. If you are playing random opponents, its a pretty good strat that will win you enough games to where you think its the only wining strat. It's not until you get to level 12 or so that it stops working enough that you have to be ready to react, and change if need be. Zerging huntresses or zerging the flag are still good strats, the part I object to is where you make it sound like the only possible rational strat, and anybody who doesn't do it is a moron.
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Quote:This is getting circular.
A two second headstart means one thing - if the horde wants it they can start the tap first. If there are a reasonable number of allies there, it is impossible to CC them all and preserve that first tap. A hunter can dismount 40yd out and arcane shot, a warrior can get off 25yd out and charge. Once the first tap is disrupted, that 2 second lead has been negated and it is open warfare. I have played my share of AB and gone blacksmith any number of times. I have never gotten that first tap off in a competitive game.
As far as your organized zerg goes.... that's why I wish they'd put in matchmaking. Saying that one strat is the best is like saying a huntress charge is the best in WC3. If you are playing random opponents, its a pretty good strat that will win you enough games to where you think its the only wining strat. It's not until you get to level 12 or so that it stops working enough that you have to be ready to react, and change if need be. Zerging huntresses or zerging the flag are still good strats, the part I object to is where you make it sound like the only possible rational strat, and anybody who doesn't do it is a moron.
AB - "I admit the terrain favors horde through the LM,BS,farm trinity that is easily defendable because the LM road leads directly into the BS and farm. If the mine were the same then it would be fully balanced. " Quote from a WoW thread from today. Add this to the posts above and I have nothing more to add.
WSG - I did not say Zerg is the only way to win. I said it is the most efficient and fastest way to win. If I want long epic battles with 400 HKs, I will go to AV. WSG, with it's horrible Rep setup, should be finished fast. Your way provies for an uncertain outcome, that takes too long to achieve. 45 min WSG is not my idea of fun. If it's yours, enjoy.
-A
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Rushing with ten people in Warsong will result in a loss if you're playing against a competent team, nine times out of ten. It might work if you're playing against PUGs, but how likely is it that all ten of your teammates are going to follow you to the flagroom and not stop and farm HKs midfield or AFK bot in the graveyard?
I've found the most success with a three-team split, with two dedicated defenders (we've found that a Shaman and Entrapment Hunter work very well, with the Shaman dispelling Blessing of Freedom and other flagcarrier buffs and both being capable of snaring from a fair distance as well as both being reasonably hard to kill), three dedicated attackers, and the remaining five playing the midfield and supporting offense or defense where necessary. It's not an automatic win, but it's easily mutable to meet the opposition, which is probably why we've seen a lot of success with it. If the enemy is defending hard (e.g. they're going to try to ninja the flag), the midfielders can move up to aid the offensive team and then cover them on the way back to our base. If the enemy is focusing on all-out offense, our eight will often be enough to counter their eight, nine, or even ten long enough for our flagcarrier to reach our flag, and our two dedicated defenders prevent any last-second ninja attempts. Furthermore, our flagcarriers carry multiple gearsets; if we find that our opposition tends to favor ZHC Pyroblasts, you can bet we'll be using a Warrior wearing Dark Iron and a Flame Reflector. We'll use Darkrune against teams with lots of Warlocks and Shadow Priests, Armor-stacking Bears against teams with lots of Rogues, and so on. In short, we've found that adapting to our opposition and exploiting their weaknesses works best:)
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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Quote:AB - "I admit the terrain favors horde through the LM,BS,farm trinity that is easily defendable because the LM road leads directly into the BS and farm. If the mine were the same then it would be fully balanced. " Quote from a WoW thread from today. Add this to the posts above and I have nothing more to add.
Who said that? If it's a blue, provide a link. If it's not, I see no reason why sitting at the crossroads bridge area between stables-mine-BS is substantially worse then sitting at farm-LM-BS.
Besides, that's not what you have been trying to argue all this time.
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09-28-2006, 07:15 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2006, 07:17 PM by Trien.)
Quote:I see no reason why sitting at the crossroads bridge area between stables-mine-BS is substantially worse then sitting at farm-LM-BS.
Sitting at the stables-mine-BS crossroads lets you reach any of those nodes pretty much as easily as sitting at farm-mill-BS crossroads. However once things start moving, and your defense force starts having to run back and forth to deal with attacks (assuming a well-coordinated attack team that isn't running around helter-skelter PUG-style), it becomes a bit different. Take the mine-BS vs mill-BS travel time. Say your defensive force has to run down to the mine to defend it. It has a much less direct route to take back to the BS, compared to riding from the mill to the BS. Plus slowfall/noggenfogger float/parachute cape lets someone get from the mill to BS quickly as well to reinforce. Same applies to assaults on the mine... at the LM if necessary you can CC/choke them off at the two ramps leading up to slow them down and buy time for more reinforcements to arrive, whereas attackers on the mine have the liberty of jumping down the edge to the flag if needed. And of course there's the visibility advantage of being at the mill--you can pretty much see where everyone is.
Onyxia:
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Quote:OK so I get AB and WSG. I've seen good info on them the basics of what you should do, the basic strats and I've actually played both of them a decent amount.
AV on the other hand is a place I rarely went. It took forever to get in on Stormrage and it just wasn't all that much fun on Terenas. So I never really learned the place. Is there a web resource (or can Lurkers produce one) that will give me a better idea of the place? Currently I get in there and I just follow the biggest pack of players either on offense or on defense. I'll help capture objectives if I'm near them. But I know there are a lot of quests you can pick up (seen a few of the quest givers) and some other stuff that that a noob to AV should generally try to get done.
My goals are pretty simple. I just want to hit honored rep with my hunter to have access to the arrows. If I find I like PvP more with the short queue times that may change, but I'm just looking to not be as lost in there as I generally am. :)
IMO, AV tactics has always been about keeping a piercing howl warrior alive. Just slow the opposing meat wall, and they'll back up. Especially at Dun Baldar. Don't stop at bridge. Just mount and go for AS and beyond. There, you unmount and spam PH for all you're worth, healer or not. 95% of the AV goers think staying alive is the most important part of AV...
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If the mill is so painfully, obviously superior to the mines in every conceivably possible way, why aren't you taking it instead of going for mines?
ArrayPaladins were not meant to sit in the back of the raid staring at health bars all day, spamming heals and listening to eight different classes whine about buffs.[/quote]
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10-02-2006, 01:44 AM
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2006, 01:50 AM by Trien.)
Quote:If the mill is so painfully, obviously superior to the mines in every conceivably possible way, why aren't you taking it instead of going for mines?
I've always argued for this, just to keep the mill out of horde hands. Nobody else seems to ever agree with me. Though the stables-smith-mill defense is harder to run as there is no common crossroads. The other thing that makes this difficult to pull off on the opening rush is if they see the larger crowd going to mill vs bs, it's very easy for them to shift forces from BS to mill, or vice-versa
In any PuG game though, 9/10 I'll be heading to the mill.
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Kichebo - 85 NE Druid
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Alright there are quite a few BG mods out there that track stuff. I've played with a few. I'd like opinions of what people use and why.
---
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
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10-10-2006, 02:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2006, 02:38 PM by Watto44.)
I'm also curious about this. I thought about getting one like BGInfo or something similar, but then it struck me. Really, the only thing I really need to know is whether or not my team controls a flag. There have been times, mostly in AV, when it would be nice to know how much longer until a node turns, but the reality is that I'm not moving until it does.:)
Do these mods offer any information that people find really useful?
I hate flags
"Then Honor System came out and I had b*$@& tattoo'd on my forehead and a "kick me" sign taped to my back." - Tiku
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Terenas (all retired): 60 Druid; 60 Shaman. (Not very creative with my character selection, am I?! 
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10-10-2006, 03:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2006, 03:07 PM by Sir_Die_alot.)
Quote:WSG slightly favors Horde. The Horde base has a little better visibility than the Alliance base. Both bases have sneaky hiding spots involving clipping. Horde can pit stupid Allies in a ditch behind a giant tree south of the Alliance exit portal.
Are you kidding? This favors alliance so much it's not even funny. Three words: Blessing of Freedom. You can say all you like about how this should be purged or whatever. But in in match where seconds of free running is more often than not the difference between winning and losing this a HUGE game breaker.
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Quote:Are you kidding? This favors alliance so much it's not even funny. Three words: Blessing of Freedom. You can say all you like about how this should be purged or whatever. But in in match where seconds of free running is more often than not the difference between winning and losing this a HUGE game breaker.
If you're going to play that card: Earthbind totem.
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Quote:If you're going to play that card: Earthbind totem.
Dispellable by anybody nearby, unlike Blessing of Freedom:)
You don't know what you're talking about.
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Quote:Dispellable by anybody nearby, unlike Blessing of Freedom:)
Still takes time to stop and kill the totem just like Blessing of Freedom takes time to purge/dispel.:)
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Quote:Still takes time to stop and kill the totem just like Blessing of Freedom takes time to purge/dispel.:)
Yes. My point was that ANYBODY can do it, or it can just be moved out of range of. Unlike BoF, which is removable by exactly two classes:)
You don't know what you're talking about.
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