I Don't Want to be Right

[kandrathe]

I think it requires intelligence and a good view on people to be able to compare someone to Hitler before this person actually becomes a homicidal dictator...

An important idea would be whether, without the Hitler, if another Hitler would have arose. And, in many ways he was just the figurehead whose weaknesses resulted in failure. To create the horrors of the Third Reich, you really needed all the main actors doing their parts; namely HIMMLER, HESS, SPEER, GOERING, GOEBBELS, and others. I believe if THE actual Hitler had not been as broken and incompetent, things may have gone in Germany's favor.

Post WWI, Germany was a virtual political tidal pool that attracted a type of extremism which became Nazism. The roots of which as I understand it were; economic chaos, shortages, deprivation, national humiliation, burgeoning communism, racial discord (looking for someone to blame). It seemed easy for the extremists to create a narrative that appealed to and expressed itself as nationalism, jingoism, and racism.

...you know, if we can't what stops a homicidal dictator from again grabbing power and commit genocide.

The way things are going, I'd say it is happening. It might very well be the USA who emerges as the next terrible dictatorship to terrorize the planet.

It's totalitarianism we need to fear -- not social organization or economic theories. Where does the authority. and power lay?

Bogeyman (Justification for State control mechanisms): Terrorism (replaced Communism)

Freedoms, rights and privacy: Subservient to the needs for State security -- becoming more of a police and surveillance state

Economy: Check. 99% etc. Punctuated by more frequent and deeper recessions, huge vulnerabilities due to peak oil, failure to modernize, limits on population and consumption.

Propaganda: Check, so much so that after Tienanmen Square, China totally revamped its failing propaganda machine to emulate the US and Britain. They've renamed it "The Office of Publicity" -- which is in an unmarked building in the center of Beijing without a street address.

Militarism: Check. The USA and allies barely exercise restraint and in many ways is involved in every world conflict. Need I expand?

When it comes to mass murder, the primary world powers, including the US are not usually the main actors. Rather, we allow/arrange for it being done by third party proxy (e.g. Iraq vs. Iran).

It is totalitarianism we need to avoid, and not some economic or social organizing theories. With whom does the power and authority lay?

[Jester]

And yesterday came the news that Hurricanes with female names account for more deaths than those with male names.

Much like with priming effects and stereotype threat, the claim does not look quite as convincing once you start digging.

-Jester

[Archon_Wing]

Seems you can't even mention Hitler's name anymore, regardless of context, w/o someone screaming "Godwin's Law!!!"

It's become ridiculous (at least in cyberspace) to the point where it has become a tautology. But as I see it, Godwin's Law was never legitimate anyways. For there are times when a comparison to Hitler or Nazism is pretty fair or even downright accurate. Which would discredit "Godwin's Law" as even being a law at all. All it is now is a code phrase to justify racism, sexism, or try to discredit someone's point no matter how correct they may be.

I have at one point even been considering writing a book about this. So much I get annoyed by this supposed 'law' of Godwin.

Id much rather discuss about the point in history where it was actually allowed by the internet community to compare Hitler with Hitler.

1926? 1933? 1938? 1945?


If you are only allowed to compare something to anther thing which is exactly equally bad or gruesome or wrong you can never compare things anymore.


I think it requires intelligence and a good view on people to be able to compare someone to Hitler before this person actually becomes a homicidal dictator......you know, if we can't what stops a homicidal dictator from again grabbing power and commit genocide.

While it was more of a joke than anything, it's actually a relevant argument against ridiculous hyperbole.

"We need more regulations for this..."
"So did Hitler!"

There are of course times when it's proper to compare stuff to Hitler when the need be, but the majority of stuff isn't.

It's obviously stupid to dismiss an argument solely based on it, just it is to casually compare stuff to fascism or what not. Interestingly, people that invoke it anyways are doing the same kind of stupidity from another end. But then "I win" buttons are usually the delusions of the foolish. Besides the original notion was that all discussions will inevitably go that way, not that it's inherently invalid. Mostly, this is another case of people interpreting words without meaning.

[FireIceTalon]

The main problem with Godwin's Law is that it treats Hitler, Nazism, and German fascism in general as some abstract, almost metaphysical evil in the course of history - instead of for what it really was: a result and response to The Treaty of Versailles and the crumbling of German capitalism, as well as the existing fragile material conditions in Europe as a whole following WWI. Godwin's Law trivializes this, as well as the fascist states that followed in Germany's steps, and additionally the economic and social implications that Nazi ideology has in other societies (like the Neo-Nazis, skin heads, and even some factions of the Tea Party here in America, or any other white nationalist group in any state). While sometimes comparing something to Hitler or Nazism is erroneous, I still think Godwin's Law is even more ridiculous and should be forgotten about entirely. It is too easily used by racists and other discriminatory groups to justify their bullshit views, or by those who just "want to be right" and dismiss those who disagree with them as tin-foil hatters, even if the tin foilers are actually right. If someone makes a poor comparison to Hitler or Nazism, the best way to handle that is to constructively dismember their argument. But shouting "Godwin's Law!!" isn't going to accomplish that, and in fact, the person who does that is the one who is actually discredited, more so than the person making the comparison (even if they are wrong).

[kandrathe]

... instead of for what it really was: a result and response to The Treaty of Versailles and the crumbling of German capitalism, as well as the existing fragile material conditions in Europe as a whole following WWI.

It was more likely that Germany's economic woes were due to the Treaty of Versailles, unrestrained hyperinflation, and the Great Depression -- see also Keynes (1919). The Economic Consequences of the Peace. Ch VI.

I believe it to be a bit obtuse, and facetious to claim generally, "capitalism failed" -- and probably also likewise to make that claim against socialism. Whereas more realistically, it is the structures, institutions, and poor human decision making that results in failures. In the case of the Wiemar Republic, they put too much reliance on borrowing, stressed their banking system and due to enforced isolation by the victors of WWI, crippled Germany's industries. As a result, they suffered high unemployment, currency devaluation, increasing poverty, crime, and extremism.

As in all things, actions have intended, and often unintended consequences. Economy is a complicated, and intertwined dance of monetary/banking policies, legislative policies, available labor, access to raw materials/goods and innovation. Every once in awhile, somebody gets an itch, and the next thing you know -- all the spinning plates hit the floor.

[Tal]

I propose a new F.I.T. Law - "as any Lounge discussion grows longer the probability of comparison involving Capitalism or the Tea Party approaches 1". At that point the thread is closed with a "This is why we can't have nice things" message, Bolty looks at us in a sad, disappointed way:



And we're all left wondering just how we can get out tresses to look as nice as his, or is it bronzer that he uses to give that glow but oh he is so dreamy...

[kandrathe]

And... rather ironic in that the OP was relating to how people tend to be closed minded; even when given data and ample information to the contrary.

[Bolty]

I'm just weirded out that LavCat makes a joke about Godwin's Law on an offhand comment regarding Hitler and suddenly the thread just turns at a 135 degree angle. Off it goes!

Then again, it's the Lurker Lounge. Such is the way of things.

[Hammerskjold]

I propose a new F.I.T. Law - "as any Lounge discussion grows longer the probability of comparison involving Capitalism or the Tea Party approaches 1". At that point the thread is closed with a "This is why we can't have nice things" message, Bolty looks at us in a sad, disappointed way:



And we're all left wondering just how we can get out tresses to look as nice as his, or is it bronzer that he uses to give that glow but oh he is so dreamy...

That reminds me of a clip for some reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnZ2XdqGZWU


" Well, Earth to Brint, it's not a real law, and it's used as a joke here."

" Uh, Earth to Meekus, I knew it was a joke, I'm just making a point."

" Uh, Earth to Brint, I'm not so sure you did, cause you were all like 'well the Treaty of Tresseme'... "

[kandrathe]

Oh, yeah? Ima get me some orange mocha frappuccino and burn down the world. :-)

[FireIceTalon]

orange mocha frappuccino? Where can I get one of these?