I'm convinced the town I work in is full of crazy people.

[Hammerskjold]

I don't disagree with any of this. I agree that people should be allowed to own shotguns and rifles. I just don't see where the 2nd amendment logically leads to the right to own military-grade weapons specifically designed to kill as many people as possible very quickly.

IIRC, at the era of it's writing, a Brown Bess musket was the military grade weapon of it's day. Go further back before that, a crossbow was at one point, considered a very 'bad and unchristian' like weapon. The Pope frowns on peasants shooting good christian knights (that took years to train and expensive to arm, and of course good christian knights never took advantage of their status or armaments...). But if you aim it at an infidel in the crusades, well that was just fine and dandy.

Go further back than that, a Gladius was military grade weaponry that was wielded by one of the more famous armies in history.

Jump forward a bit, the shotgun was feared as an effective trench gun in WW1.

IMO, discussion like this is swayed too much by how a weapon often looks.
Weapons are specialized tools to me, and again IMO any tool can be used for good or bad.

If I say 'military sniper rifle', most people's first image is some scary looking, urban camo, tacticool looking thing, designed only to splatter brains and guts. But if I say 'scoped deer rifle', probably something not out of place during hunting season, most people may be more at ease.

The difference between the two is not very large, mostly cosmetic and in some cases there are none. Military grade can sometimes mean made to a higher spec (eg: more durable), but it can also mean made by the lowest bidder. There are examples where the 'civy' grades stuff is miles above 'mil-spec'.

Nowadays, I can make a gladius style weapon, and just call it my 'large camping knife'.

Maybe in the next millenia, advanced 3d printers and nanofacturing can turn out a shotgun in 30 minutes, in the convenience of your own home.
And no one will really give much care, because it will be looked at the same way a Brown Bess musket is by us in 2012.

Then again I bet the debate by then will be 'does the 2nd amendment spell out how and why civies can own military grade plasma blasters and nanowire swords?'

[eppie]

In the netherlands the chance of being harmed by an armed burglar is close to zero, and once we start legalizing guns, that chance will go up tremendously.......irrespective of the fact if I can defend myself.

Is that based on the criminals having access to weapons? Can they not smuggle them in by car from other parts of Europe?

No it is about the fact that normal people will have access to weapons.
As I explained before the result of normal people having guns will be that petty criminals will also start carrying guns everywhere.

Nowadays burglars don't need to and don't bring guns, they just try and make sure nobody is home.

[bldavis]

In the netherlands the chance of being harmed by an armed burglar is close to zero, and once we start legalizing guns, that chance will go up tremendously.......irrespective of the fact if I can defend myself.

Is that based on the criminals having access to weapons? Can they not smuggle them in by car from other parts of Europe?

No it is about the fact that normal people will have access to weapons.
As I explained before the result of normal people having guns will be that petty criminals will also start carrying guns everywhere.

Nowadays burglars don't need to and don't bring guns, they just try and make sure nobody is home.

which might be the case for burglars...but what about home invaders?

if someone is in my house when i get home, im prob not going to have access to a weapon anyway unless i have a concealed weapon permit

if i am home when they come in, that is a different story.
if they knowingly enter an occupied residence, chances are they are armed to hopefully have the upper hand.

as to someones comment about inviting someone over and shooting them, and then claiming self defense, you can claim all you want. but how do you show the cops and prosecution that it was self defense when the guy is holding a beer instead of a gun? (and no.."shotgunning" said beer does not count)

[kandrathe]

No it is about the fact that normal people will have access to weapons. As I explained before the result of normal people having guns will be that petty criminals will also start carrying guns everywhere.

I must admit this makes little sense to me.

You think that criminals (sociopaths) don't arm themselves now because they know everyone is disarmed. And, if guns were available, then you believe criminals would arm themselves because they would assume their prey were armed.

So, I researched the Netherlands a bit more. It is not too difficult to get a gun if you want to get one. It seems to be a bit of a pain for legal gun owners to have the police visit you once a year to inspect your gun safe. But, you still do have gun crimes, but not as much as some other European nations many who have stricter gun laws. Similar to where I live, gun crime is more prevalent in urban poverty stricken areas.

Of interest -- Harvard Law Review; WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? by DON B. KATES AND GARY MAUSER

"These statistics reinforce the point that murder rates are determined by basic socio‐cultural and economic factors rather than mere availability of some particular form of weaponry. Consider Norway and its neighbors Sweden, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Norway has far and away Western Europe’s highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate. The Netherlands has the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe (1.9%), and Sweden lies midway between (15.1%) the Netherlands and Norway. Yet the Dutch gun murder rate is higher than the Norwegian, and the Swedish rate is even higher, though only slightly.137" -- from page 687

I would conclude that your experience with gun crime has more to do with the Dutch culture, and less to do with your access to weapons.

[DeeBye]

IMO, discussion like this is swayed too much by how a weapon often looks.
Weapons are specialized tools to me, and again IMO any tool can be used for good or bad.

I think I draw the line when a weapon is designed to kill many things at once as easily as possible. A shotgun could fit this definition, but only if one has multiple targets within a few feet of oneself. I really don't think that a gun is a tool that has multiple uses though - it kills things. I suppose a really good shooter could use it as a fancy beer bottle opener.

I like your historical throwbacks though. I thought about that a bit and decided that even in this modern day - if a guy that lives half a block away from me started building a giant trebuchet and had giant pots of boiling oil around I might get a little bit scared.

[bldavis]

i agree with the line
a shotgun is used to hunt birds, where an assault rifle will just spoil meat by tearing it up more than needed

[eppie]

No it is about the fact that normal people will have access to weapons. As I explained before the result of normal people having guns will be that petty criminals will also start carrying guns everywhere.

I must admit this makes little sense to me.

You think that criminals (sociopaths) don't arm themselves now because they know everyone is disarmed. And, if guns were available, then you believe criminals would arm themselves because they would assume their prey were armed.

So, I researched the Netherlands a bit more. It is not too difficult to get a gun if you want to get one. It seems to be a bit of a pain for legal gun owners to have the police visit you once a year to inspect your gun safe. But, you still do have gun crimes, but not as much as some other European nations many who have stricter gun laws. Similar to where I live, gun crime is more prevalent in urban poverty stricken areas.

Of interest -- Harvard Law Review; WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? by DON B. KATES AND GARY MAUSER

"These statistics reinforce the point that murder rates are determined by basic socio‐cultural and economic factors rather than mere availability of some particular form of weaponry. Consider Norway and its neighbors Sweden, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Norway has far and away Western Europe’s highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate. The Netherlands has the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe (1.9%), and Sweden lies midway between (15.1%) the Netherlands and Norway. Yet the Dutch gun murder rate is higher than the Norwegian, and the Swedish rate is even higher, though only slightly.137" -- from page 687

I would conclude that your experience with gun crime has more to do with the Dutch culture, and less to do with your access to weapons.

Please also think a bit instead of only placing links and statistics.

First, what do you (or your link) consider murder? Someone killed during a burglary will be manslaughter, not murder.

Sociopaths will always get their hands on guns, that group will not be 'affected' by legalization of guns or not. It is the much larger group of small criminals....people that commit crimes to gain some money. So we are not talking about drugdealers, organized crime or sociopaths. (crime and murder rates among these groups are indeed governed by other things).

I don't know if it is my bad english, or that you just don't get the fact that when normal people are allowed to have guns, the group of small criminals (that in Holland do not carry weapons) will also get guns?

There are so many examples coming from the US every year which show the risks of this.

-the black teen who was killed by some rambo type neigbourhood patrol
-little kids who accidently kill their little brother with daddy's gun
-violent break ins because of encounters between thief and home owner
-shooting of cops

Anyway I would like to explain the first thing (criminals getting guns because normal people will get them for defence) again because it is the basis of what I am saying and you say it makes little sense to you.

So I will try it by asking you a question:
say you are a person who resorts to burglaries to make money (maybe because of having no job, maybe because you have gambling debts etc. but not because you are a serial killer...).
In a country where normal people don't have guns; would you bring a gun with you when you went around breaking in to houses?

If however you know that the chance is very big that the home-owner has a gun; would you bring a gun now?

[kandrathe]

Please also think a bit instead of only placing links and statistics.

My thinking is informed by research.

First, what do you (or your link) consider murder? Someone killed during a burglary will be manslaughter, not murder.

If you brought a gun, or a knife to a robbery and someone is killed, then it is a murder. The lethal weapon implies the intent to kill. Manslaughter has variations of voluntary, or involuntary, but it is when a person is unintentionally killed by another. Like, if a person if punched, falls and hits their head fatally. Or, you run a red light, and strike someone with the car.

Sociopaths will always get their hands on guns...

Agreed.

I don't know if it is my bad english, or that you just don't get the fact that when normal people are allowed to have guns, the group of small criminals (that in Holland do not carry weapons) will also get guns?

We already agreed that sociopaths will get guns whether they need them or not. The questions is; what do normal people do with guns? Do they then become sociopaths? Probably not. So, the question is not "How do I keep guns away from honest, peaceful people?", but rather, "How do I keep guns away from people who will used them to commit crimes?" AND better still, "How do I help to prevent honest, peaceful people from becoming sociopaths in the first place."

There are so many examples {well publicized anecdotes}...

Again, my thoughts need to be formed by statistical research, not by individual anecdotes. "Man, goes crazy, crushes cars and kills dogs with giant lawn tractor" -- how can we stop him!!!

In a country where normal people don't have guns; would you bring a gun with you when you went around breaking in to houses?

Let me try to slip into character.... First, it hard to think straight due to my heroine withdrawal, but if I had access to one I'd probably bring it just in case. I might stop to weigh the possible criminal sentences of having it, or not having it, but probably not, because then I might just rethink this whole burglary thing too.

If however you know that the chance is very big that the home-owner has a gun; would you bring a gun now?

Again, I'm either a smart criminal who ensures that there is no one home, or relies on my cat like stealth, or I'm a stupid one who blunders into homes whether or not people are there knowing they might be also better armed than me. If I'm stupid enough to be the later, then I'm certainly stupid enough to have a gun whether or not I need it. Because, I'm really, really stupid. If I were smarter I would have considered the downsides of not just getting caught, but also of getting blown away by the home owner.

[Nystul]

I only have my instinct and some anecdotal experience, but this notion that burglars in the United States are likely to carry guns seems wrong to me. If a burglar gets into a confrontation he has really screwed up big time. I think the typical burglar wouldn't know how to load a gun much less use it. Amateur hour. But the career criminal types, if they felt the need for a gun, would almost certainly obtain it through illegal means.

Unfortunately I do agree that guns owned for self-defense are more likely to lead to an accidental shooting or an unwise confrontation than to protect the owner. If I owned a gun I would want to store it separately from its ammo, which would make it's use against a home invader rather dubious. People who have loaded guns in the home with kids running around are taking quite a risk.

[DeeBye]

I only have my instinct and some anecdotal experience, but this notion that burglars in the United States are likely to carry guns seems wrong to me. If a burglar gets into a confrontation he has really screwed up big time. I think the typical burglar wouldn't know how to load a gun much less use it.

Watching NRA videos has taught me that every burglar in the US is wearing body armor and carries a fully automatic weapon.

[Occhidiangela]

That would make you in need of glasses, DeeBye. And a hearing test.

Suggest you research the NRA magazine (American Rifleman) and read a few months worth of "The Armed Citizen" to try and understand the wide variation of forms found in the interaction between criminal jerks and various persons using a firearm to ward off (and sometimes shoot) said criminal jerks.

Or, you can keep talking out of your backside.

(My one criticism of the AR summaries is that they tend to report successful confrontations. It would take a bit more research to find out how often an armed citizen, for whatever reason, gets in over his head in a home defense or shop defense or intervene with CCL situation. That Zimmerman fellow in Florida is one such).

[DeeBye]

That would make you in need of glasses, DeeBye. And a hearing test.

Suggest you research the NRA magazine (American Rifleman) and read a few months worth of "The Armed Citizen" to try and understand the wide variation of forms found in the interaction between criminal jerks and various persons using a firearm to ward off (and sometimes shoot) said criminal jerks.

Or, you can keep talking out of your backside.

Relax, I wasn't being 100% serious. I've never actually watched a full NRA video.

[kandrathe]

Relax, I wasn't being 100% serious. I've never actually watched a full NRA video.

That was Predator.

"Long Tall Sally, she built sweet, she got everything, that Uncle John need. Aw baby, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun. "

{gratuitous minigun shreds jungle}

[DeeBye]

That was Predator.

"Long Tall Sally, she built sweet, she got everything, that Uncle John need. Aw baby, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun. "

{gratuitous minigun shreds jungle}

[LochnarITB]

That was Predator.

"Long Tall Sally, she built sweet, she got everything, that Uncle John need. Aw baby, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun, I'm gonna have me some fun. "

{gratuitous minigun shreds jungle}

I could watch that scene looped for hours! RAWR! I think there is a place outside of Las Vegas that lets you shoot a mini ($$$$). I should have that on my bucket list!

[NuurAbSaal]

Apfelstrudel.

take care
Tarabulus