The Diablo Formula and how Diablo 3 falls short
#81
(07-25-2012, 11:51 PM)Jester Wrote:
(07-25-2012, 10:06 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote: The majority of items were junk, but the thing is that they frequently also have more longevity. I brought up the example of Twitch in my last post because the ias and extra block was consistently useful all the way to the end of the game. Most midlevel uniques could carry one easily, such as Duriel Shell or Skin of the Vipermagi. And yes, while they came out via the expansion, I don't see a reason why we should compare D3 to D2 vanilla; why take a step backwards?

The rest of this, I'll leave, but this is a key point. Games have to be made individually. You can't just take the state of a game after years of intensive patching for balance and content, and then assume that's now the new square one for the sequel. It just doesn't work that way. All this stuff takes development time and resources.

Maybe they could have launched with a better item system. But they can't launch with years of patches already under their belt. It just doesn't work that way. Each new game is not going to be a pareto improvement on the last iteration of the last game.

-Jester

True, but this I consider that to be a broad concept in which was simply conceptualized wrong just makes me feel that they didn't draw upon the many years of experience and lessons to be learned in D2 sufficiently.

It's also why the balancing of the game around hell mode was doomed to fail too, if one just observed Diablo 2 online for a little bit.

Finally, just because Diablo II did it wrong with the uniques and other items doesn't make Diablo 3's failings here in that area any better. And even so D2 vanilla lacked level reqs which means they were great twinking gear and very useful for low levels. That doesn't make it any better, but it did something!

Or even go back to Diablo 1, where we had entry level uniques that served as a fine placeholder for the true loot to come.

Just because an item isn't top tier, doesn't mean it has to be useless. Legendaries don't have to be top-tier, but they should have a role.

It is why I cannot complain too much about bugs and exploits, because no code can be perfect right away. Flawed concepts on the other hand...
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#82
(07-25-2012, 10:06 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote: Instead of Frozen, how about a ticking holy freeze aura that slows you down, as opposed to getting hit by random shards and sitting there watching your character get hit? How about jailer creating a box around you, as opposed to just immobilizing you? How about vortex creates rifts that slowly drag you into them as opposed to just sucking you in and instagibbing you? Instead of invulnerable minions, how about ethereal minions that materialize if the leader dies? They do less damage in ethereal form. Nightmarish is one of the worst, so it should be a terror spell on cooldown.

I like the idea you had about invulnerable minions, but OH GOD NO on the frozen. I would much rather have the chance to just RUN AWAY from the frozen gobs before they explode. Yes, sometimes I can't out maneuver them because of walls or jailer, but constantly being slow instead while fighting them? No way. Especially on fast packs. Vortex I'm fine with. You get sucked in, you move out, even when they suck me into desecration or arcane beams, vortex is still fine.
Intolerant monkey.
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#83
The only abilities I think require modifications are Invulnerable Minions (which is generally accepted as total bullshit) and Arcane Enchanted.

I've said it before, but as far as IM goes you just need to split the difference with the Health Link mod. Make the minions invincible but transfer a small portion of the damage they take to the boss. Thus you are always going to get better bang for your buck directely attacking the boss and you can't minimize the fight by picking off the minions, but the damage you are putting out there isn't being 100% negated. Even 5-10% damage transfer to the boss would do the trick.

The problem with Arcane Enchanted is that it does EVERYTHING all wrapped up in one spell. Not only is it (arguably) the best damage output spell, but it is also (arguably) the best zone control/manipulation spell. They need to decide which it is supposed to be primarily. If it is supposed to be primarily a damage spell then they should increase the activation time by a short period (.5 seconds or so) and keep the high damage output, but increase the speed at which the beam circles. That way the beam comes out, you have more than adequate time to react, and then there is a short period of time where the high damage is active before it dissipates. The increase in speed of the beam rotation will mean that there are short bursts of time with high danger and then the skill goes into cooldown dormancy, unlike now where your screen is constantly filled with Arcane Sentries.

If Arcane is supposed to be a zone control spell however, they should keep things as they are now but lower the damage considerably. Along with the lowered damage they should add a short (possibly stacking) debuff for getting hit with the beam that increases other sources of damage by an amount. Say 10%. Thus you are highly motivated to GTFO of the area the beams occupy, but it isn't going to mean insta-death if you get inadvertantly Walled into one or Vortexed on top of one that is activating.
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#84
(07-26-2012, 02:22 AM)Chesspiece_face Wrote: If Arcane is supposed to be a zone control spell however

You just made me realize that it would be amusing if there was an ArcaneWall modification. Instead of doing damage the beams would act as rotating walls that would push you along them as them moved if you were in their path. Make it so you can shoot over them, but not walk through them. If you get pinned then they stop moving till their timer runs out and disappears effectively keeping you there for that time. People would hate it! It'd be great. : )
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#85
Yricyn:

I guess you missed my point.

The difference between being slowed and being forced to run away (and as above, it can be cast by packs in sequence) removes the player from the game.

I don't have your affection for the monsters. The point is to kill them.

Diablo had that cage you skill that was rarely used, but it was only one of him, in Diablo II. You had to find a way to work around it, and it could kill you if you weren't ready.

The NM, the FROZEN (not chilled/slowed) isn't a challenge, it is an interruption of game play.

I'll discuss jailer later (months from now) as I need to mess with that on higher diff levels before I comment further. It is similar enough to Diablo's old skill that I may be able to be less annoyed by it. You still get to take someactions, albeit you are stuck somewhere.

Stun lock and fast attack could kill you in D II and D I. Once you experienced it a few times, you learned to work around it.

NM and FROZEN have no counter.

Or if they do, I'd like to see it explained.
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
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#86
(07-26-2012, 03:09 AM)Occhidiangela Wrote: Stun lock and fast attack could kill you in D II and D I. Once you experienced it a few times, you learned to work around it.

NM and FROZEN have no counter.

Or if they do, I'd like to see it explained.

Same way you avoided stunlock in D1 - don't get caught by it. Frozen is triggered by orbs that are plainly visible for several seconds before they explode. While it's a pain to avoid, it shouldn't be impossible.

Nightmarish, I can't see how you avoid as a melee class. Ranged, you obviously just stay out of the way.

-Jester
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#87
(07-26-2012, 01:28 AM)Treesh Wrote:
(07-25-2012, 10:06 PM)Archon_Wing Wrote: Instead of Frozen, how about a ticking holy freeze aura that slows you down, as opposed to getting hit by random shards and sitting there watching your character get hit? How about jailer creating a box around you, as opposed to just immobilizing you? How about vortex creates rifts that slowly drag you into them as opposed to just sucking you in and instagibbing you? Instead of invulnerable minions, how about ethereal minions that materialize if the leader dies? They do less damage in ethereal form. Nightmarish is one of the worst, so it should be a terror spell on cooldown.

I like the idea you had about invulnerable minions, but OH GOD NO on the frozen. I would much rather have the chance to just RUN AWAY from the frozen gobs before they explode. Yes, sometimes I can't out maneuver them because of walls or jailer, but constantly being slow instead while fighting them? No way. Especially on fast packs. Vortex I'm fine with. You get sucked in, you move out, even when they suck me into desecration or arcane beams, vortex is still fine.

Lol well, I won't miss frozen if it went missing one day. :p
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#88
Frozen is mostly fine. It's heavily telegraphed and (for the most part) avoidable. It's only problematic in tight quarters, or in combination with other abilities that deny movement.

Invulnerable minions, jailer, and vortex are by far the biggest offenders when it comes to bullshit in this game. Jailer in particular is awful, unavoidable lock down, sometimes triggering every 2-3 seconds (when faced with a champ pack). This ability has NO reason to be in the game.
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#89
Seconded.
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
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#90
(07-27-2012, 11:31 AM)Athenau Wrote: Invulnerable minions, jailer, and vortex are by far the biggest offenders when it comes to bullshit in this game. Jailer in particular is awful, unavoidable lock down, sometimes triggering every 2-3 seconds (when faced with a champ pack). This ability has NO reason to be in the game.

Oh it has a reason, to kill you!! That's why it sucks.

I'm close to quitting D3, especially now Borderlands 2 is out, somewhat similar game, but no the flaws of D3, i'm really tired of the loot grind....or Gold grind, because really it's the gold i'll use as nothing i get after hrs of grinding have i kept to use, even across multiple characters as the AH is a better place to get the items to progress, until last Inferno, than just say goodbye or Hello to the "Death - Re-spawn - Death - Repeat until it's dead than pay 1000's of gold to repair" cycle.

Also, strangely, Blizzard are DEAD AGAINST people buying Gold, but the RMAH is basically the same thing, with one exception, Blizzard get their cut, and that's the reason D3 in my book really fails.

Spend real money to progress in the game, but only if you do it the way they want it? Hypocritical?!

Just my 2 cents worth.
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#91
This thread is a little outdated, IMO. 1.04 D3 is a lot of fun to play, even if the itemization still isn't great. And I expect 1.05 to be a huge improvement.
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#92
(09-24-2012, 02:49 AM)mistique Wrote: Also, strangely, Blizzard are DEAD AGAINST people buying Gold, but the RMAH is basically the same thing, with one exception, Blizzard get their cut, and that's the reason D3 in my book really fails.

Blizzard has been really dead set against purchasing gold on 3rd party auction sites for more than a decade, because they have to deal with the after effects of players getting their account and financial information stolen by those sites. I know we're all used to being skeptical of what companies say, but sometimes they do say the truth.
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#93
(09-24-2012, 07:37 PM)MongoJerry Wrote:
(09-24-2012, 02:49 AM)mistique Wrote: Also, strangely, Blizzard are DEAD AGAINST people buying Gold, but the RMAH is basically the same thing, with one exception, Blizzard get their cut, and that's the reason D3 in my book really fails.

Blizzard is really dead set against purchasing gold on 3rd party auction sites for more than a decade, because they have to deal with the after effects of players getting their account and financial information stolen by those sites. I know we're all used to being skeptical of what companies say, but sometimes they do say the truth.

It's still just another form of paying for items, there are some "safe" gold sellers.... relatively, and if it was just because of the risk of account fraud e then Blizzard could have facilitated that too, but then what "cut" can you get from a gold seller?
I mean really, the RMAH is just letting you buy stuff without the step of needing gold to do it.
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#94
(09-25-2012, 12:15 AM)mistique Wrote: It's still just another form of paying for items, there are some "safe" gold sellers.... relatively, and if it was just because of the risk of account fraud e then Blizzard could have facilitated that too, but then what "cut" can you get from a gold seller?
I mean really, the RMAH is just letting you buy stuff without the step of needing gold to do it.

Honestly I don't think Blizzard is that greedy with the RMAH. For one thing, the gold AH works just fine. In patch 1.03 very skilled players could beat the game with less than 5M, in some cases much less. That might sound like a lot, but you make 1M just playing a character to 60. Patch 1.04 made it easier - I could beat the game with that amount. The coming patch will make it even easier. People really aren't forced to use to spend money to progress.

Blizzard does get a cut of the RMAH, and I'm sure it's a nice income stream for them. However their terms seem pretty generous. There's no listing fee and they only take a $1 cut. So most of the money goes to the players selling. The way these things work is that most people don't buy anything, but a few people make several really expensive purchases. Say someone decides to buy their way into the best gear, and spend between $10 - $200 on each slot. Blizzard only makes $13 from this.

Other pay to win games will have exclusive items, and directly take $10 or more from the purchases. Instead Blizzard has a much more player driven economy.
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#95
Who even cares if people pay for stuff on the RMAH? This isn't a competitive game, what people buy has no impact on you. And there's no danger of inflation because the only way to inject gold/new items into the economy is to play the game.

On the laundry list of asinine complaints about this game, this has to be near the top.
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#96
People will pay for items anyways. They paid for it in D2, and this is no different except more streamlined.

And yea, who cares anyways?

Personally, I'm taking a long break from the game after losing a hardcore character to a game crash. The disconnect mechanic as is pretty much guarantees the moment there's an issue that you're instantly dead. I just don't think forcing you to wait 10 seconds or more before leaving adds anything to the game-- it's just an annoyance in softcore as well. Sure, people can abuse by alt-f4ing or w/e but I don't care about that. Hell, even the top paragon characters die to this crap. I only lost a 35, but I certainly wouldn't want to lose a high paragon character to this.

I think a lot of the mechanics of the game just have to take in account lag and disconnects since the online only requirement makes it part of the game. Unfortunately at this point, this is a deal breaker.

Yea, I know that by creating a hc character you should be prepared to lose one if bad luck happens, but this just would be a huge damper. As for this particular loss, I'll accept it since I had noticed some rather bad latency beforehand.
With great power comes the great need to blame other people.
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#97
Well....i guess I've been told,
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#98
(09-25-2012, 04:28 PM)ErickTheRed Wrote: Blizzard does get a cut of the RMAH, and I'm sure it's a nice income stream for them. However their terms seem pretty generous. There's no listing fee and they only take a $1 cut. So most of the money goes to the players selling. The way these things work is that most people don't buy anything, but a few people make several really expensive purchases. Say someone decides to buy their way into the best gear, and spend between $10 - $200 on each slot. Blizzard only makes $13 from this.

The real cut is the 15% they extract when you try to go to paypal... or else people buying extra blizzard products.
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