Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken

[Yricyn]

I just got to the point you hit on June 6th. Feeling mighty accomplished by finally defeating the Butcher, I moved on to Act II, to get obliterated by the first bee after the enchantress outside of the Caldeum campsite.

[Tal]

If you mostly play solo, you can be generally immune from that. But then you'll get to some point in progression (say, Inferno Act II, where there's a gigantic jump in difficulty), and realize that you can only progress through hundreds of hours of farming gear. You will either like this setup, or you won't. To each their own.

Just posting an update now. I wrote that on June 6th. It's now June 18th, and I have acquired the gear to handle Act II - to an extent. I've adopted a mobile-Barbarian mindset, using both Leap and Furious Charge due to the necessity of running away from Act II mobs constantly. I have almost 900 resist all with War Cry and roughly 8500 armor, and can still get 3-shot by certain champion/rare mobs (spiders especially), leading to guerrilla-style tactics of leaping in, tanking something for 5-6 seconds, and charging out.

I've defeated Belial in groups a number of times, but there are still champion packs that, depending on the abilities, are simply parked and ignored for being unkillable. I recall one that made me laugh - Invulnerable Minions, Illusionist, Arcane, Frozen. Just completely impossible. Upon any engagement, the screen would be littered with arcane orbs and frozen spikes.

White mobs in Act III destroy me with ease - I have to use the hit-and-run tactics that I use on Act II champions/rares. And thus the cycle begins anew...

I'm stuck in Act III Hell on my clvl58 Barbarian and I'm not sure how much farther I'll go in D3. Every time I start up the game I run into something that makes it a total slogfest.

For example on Sat morning I logged in and headed out into the battlefield. I ran into a champ pack of flying morlocks (the winged beasts) that was Illusionist (or horde - I can't remember except that there were 8 of the minions) and molten as the primary attributes.

Everytime I engaged one, it would run away and wake up more monsters, which in a way was a blessing since it was my only source of revenge procs and heal orbs. I finally set into a rhythm and would find a minion and chase it into a corner where between my minion and I we could pin it and kill it. All in all it took 15 minutes, I had gone through a ton of potions, my wrist and hand hurt from clicking so much and I was entirely wrung out from it. Oh and it dropped a blue quiver with strength on it.

After that I sent a tell to TD saying 'Eff this game' and logged into WoW and spent an hour merrily destroying people in WSG.

I've had offers from people to help me get over the current hump and to level 60 so I can start playing Inferno. I'm just not sure from what I've read that it will be something I want to do. I play the game for fun and a challenge. Not to be frustrated by a grind.

[Taelas]

They mentioned a change to those types of Champ/Elite packs, so they won't run off so much.

[Trevan]

If you mostly play solo, you can be generally immune from that. But then you'll get to some point in progression (say, Inferno Act II, where there's a gigantic jump in difficulty), and realize that you can only progress through hundreds of hours of farming gear. You will either like this setup, or you won't. To each their own.

Just posting an update now. I wrote that on June 6th. It's now June 18th, and I have acquired the gear to handle Act II - to an extent. I've adopted a mobile-Barbarian mindset, using both Leap and Furious Charge due to the necessity of running away from Act II mobs constantly. I have almost 900 resist all with War Cry and roughly 8500 armor, and can still get 3-shot by certain champion/rare mobs (spiders especially), leading to guerrilla-style tactics of leaping in, tanking something for 5-6 seconds, and charging out.

I've defeated Belial in groups a number of times, but there are still champion packs that, depending on the abilities, are simply parked and ignored for being unkillable. I recall one that made me laugh - Invulnerable Minions, Illusionist, Arcane, Frozen. Just completely impossible. Upon any engagement, the screen would be littered with arcane orbs and frozen spikes.

White mobs in Act III destroy me with ease - I have to use the hit-and-run tactics that I use on Act II champions/rares. And thus the cycle begins anew...

On June 10th, I killed Hell Diablo. On June 12th, I killed the Inferno Butcher. I then struggled a bit in Inferno act 2, then bought the following:
Shoulders: 30k
Bracers: 20k
Gloves: 40k
Boots: 50k
Belt: 49k
Chest: 4k (That was a steal for sure)
Blue ring: 15k
Helm: 13k
Two one hand xbows: 30k and 40k
My second ring, pants, and amulet are from hell difficulty
Total cost: 291k gold

I haven't bought anything new since act 2 inferno, and I am now trying to beat inferno Diablo in act 4. I killed everything on the way here except a few champion packs I just didn't want to bother with (shielding, jailer, mortar, fast for example).

Now, I understand you're playing a barbarian, and I completely agree they have that overgeared god or undergeared whipping boy problem. But I wonder, is inferno really broken? Or is it really the melee/ranged discrepancy and skill/class balance that is broken?

Of course, you can make a case they're interrelated, but I feel like if they worked on skill/class balance and improved some of the more trash skills, it'd have a better effect than just the across the board nerfing they're planning. As it stands, their proposed changes don't sound like they will change anything but make the gear standard a little more relaxed. The core inferno game play experience sounds like it'll remain the same.

[Bolty]

Now, I understand you're playing a barbarian, and I completely agree they have that overgeared god or undergeared whipping boy problem. But I wonder, is inferno really broken? Or is it really the melee/ranged discrepancy and skill/class balance that is broken?

Of course, you can make a case they're interrelated, but I feel like if they worked on skill/class balance and improved some of the more trash skills, it'd have a better effect than just the across the board nerfing they're planning. As it stands, their proposed changes don't sound like they will change anything but make the gear standard a little more relaxed. The core inferno game play experience sounds like it'll remain the same.

Hmm, well, obviously I didn't go through the AH method you did. I just don't find the AH enjoyable as a way to spend my gaming time. I don't recall what date I entered Inferno difficulty was, but a lot of time was wasted trying to play in groups before Blizzard hotfixed mob damage while grouped - before that change, playing in groups larger than 2 was effectively impossible for me.

The fundamental issue between ranged (especially DH) and melee is that for you, any mob can 1 or 2 shot you. The difference in gearing up is that you do more damage, increasing the odds of killing something before it 1 or 2 shots you. For a melee class, the gear is necessary simply to be able to apply any offense whatsoever; if I'm not geared enough to survive toe-to-toe with an opponent, there isn't much point to bothering.

So when I defeat Belial in a group and they all (ranged) want to jump into Act III, they're all excited for it and I bow out quickly. To them, there's no difference between Act II and Act III; the mobs will 2-shot them in both places. For me, the difference is enormous; the damage the monsters hit me with ramps up significantly to the point where I cannot function.

In group games that I play in, the ranged players enjoy having me as a meat shield to absorb a lot of the incoming damage. In effect, I act as a buffer to accommodate for their sometimes-undergeared characters, making up for their lack of damage by buying additional time. But that's all I can do - buy time. I can't tank champs or rares indefinitely except for a few cases of all melee-friendly abilities and low-damage mob types. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of gear and numbers.

So when you evaluate that the patch changes will relax the gear curve, understand that it has a profound impact to melee classes, one that won't be so noticeable to a class that (currently) is built entirely on not ever getting hit. A Demon Hunter and a Barbarian are essentially polar opposites in that respect, and especially in my approach (pure defense) vs the approach all Demon Hunters are forced to take (pure offense). There isn't any viable way Demon Hunters can gear and spec to have any significant impact on their survivability against mobs that hit for 35k baseline. Not so for Barbs, since they must take those hits to do anything.


Oh, and to Tal: what you are describing is the average Inferno boss pack encounter. They are brutal. They are tough. I think one of the largest adjustments when you get to late game is that your mindset for champs and rares changes from "oh this is a speedbump" to:

1) Is this pack doable (i.e. does it have some totally BS combination of abilities that are impossible to handle)
2) How will I kill this - usually meaning, how can I break the pack up and isolate one or two of them
3) How will I manage my long cooldowns - many fights can take 10+ minutes
4) How long will it take to kill - will I risk having my Valor stack drop off fighting them

As you gear up, the goalpost of "speedbump" vs "oh here we go" shifts. Boss packs in Act 1 Inferno are almost all speedbump variety for me now, and Act II packs require the evaluation.

Oh, and try another level or two - I know I dinged 60 in Act III Hell. 58 is a tad low there. The levels the mobs are compared to you makes a big difference in survivability (which is why Inferno is so hard, everything's above you in level).

[Trevan]

Hmm, well, obviously I didn't go through the AH method you did. I just don't find the AH enjoyable as a way to spend my gaming time. I don't recall what date I entered Inferno difficulty was, but a lot of time was wasted trying to play in groups before Blizzard hotfixed mob damage while grouped - before that change, playing in groups larger than 2 was effectively impossible for me.

I mostly put that in because i've heard quotes of requiring millions of gold/years of farming to get necessary gear. It wasn't truly directed at you, and I apologize for that.

Everything you said is exactly my point though. Is just overall reducing the damage of everything really going to change anything? We know melee can get through inferno, it just requires a metric ton of gear or so. Simply lowering the amount doesn't change the fact it's like you said, a matter of gear and numbers. You've said it yourself, either melee is geared enough to look like a god, or undergeared and gets its ass kicked. I don't think changing that line is the solution to improving inferno. I would think it'd be better to make it so that line is blurrier, and you have the whole "I'm tanking it now...not sure for how long" feel.

I suppose I just wish they'd do class balance first before inferno changes, so probably just being selfish. I'm not actually just saying this from a DH perspective, this is also from my monk's perspective atm.

I admit, I may be incredibly biased though. I enjoy beating everything on the highest difficulty setting, whether it's mass effect insanity, tales of vesperia hard mode, or I wanna be the guy. My type of fun is...niche.

[Quark]

Quick note: I know of at least one DH who's gotten through Act 2 through Gloom tanking. I'm not sure how he did in Act 3.

[Trevan]

Quick note: I know of at least one DH who's gotten through Act 2 through Gloom tanking. I'm not sure how he did in Act 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Vv8EdB2uE

[ErickTheRed]

I have the opposite problem regarding grouping with ranged. I can solo Act 2 now, but I'd really like to group with a ranged dps both for variety and to hopefully clear faster.

However all my demon hunter friends more or less give up and stop playing that character after they try Act 2. One of them is from Australia, and deals with 300-500ms pings which really doesn't help.

[Roland]

I have the opposite problem regarding grouping with ranged. I can solo Act 2 now, but I'd really like to group with a ranged dps both for variety and to hopefully clear faster.

However all my demon hunter friends more or less give up and stop playing that character after they try Act 2. One of them is from Australia, and deals with 300-500ms pings which really doesn't help.

Just tried advancing through Act 2 with Monty. We got our asses handed to us by an IM serpent pack. Gave up. He couldn't tank and I couldn't DPS. I understand it's not always like this, but all it takes is one bad mob pack to ruin your play session. Act II simply isn't any fun without massive gear investment (millions of gold), and/or boring cookie-cutter skills. Know why I'm still only halfway through Act 2? Because instead of spending my gold on a 1.1k DPS bow I've been spending it on defensive gear. As such I can take about 2 hits in Act II, but can't dish out enough DPS to beat certain mob packs. So, I'm stuck waiting on 1.0.3 to fix the game for me.

We did a few Butcher runs instead. Much more fun, and managed to get a couple hundred thousand gold out of the deal. Probably not enough to buy anything off the AH, but maybe I can upgrade some more gems if I feel like wasting gold.

[Mavfin]

Just by the way, looks like 1.0.3 is tomorrow, so we'll find out very soon how much they've adjusted things.

[Mirajj]

I must be the only one around who hears "Oh, the Inferno white mobs will 1-2 shot you unless you spend hours and hours farming or millions on the AH" and thinks: "That doesn't sound like any fun at all." I'm not interested in having every single mob in the game be able to 1-2 shot me. I'm not interested in spending 10+ minutes fighting a single mob (or pack).

[DeeBye]

I must be the only one around who hears "Oh, the Inferno white mobs will 1-2 shot you unless you spend hours and hours farming or millions on the AH" and thinks: "That doesn't sound like any fun at all." I'm not interested in having every single mob in the game be able to 1-2 shot me. I'm not interested in spending 10+ minutes fighting a single mob (or pack).

Nope, you're not the only one. I'm well and truly done with Hell difficulty on my WD, but Act 2 Inferno just makes me want to throw a cinder block through my monitor. It's just not fun.

[Trevan]

I must be the only one around who hears "Oh, the Inferno white mobs will 1-2 shot you unless you spend hours and hours farming or millions on the AH" and thinks: "That doesn't sound like any fun at all." I'm not interested in having every single mob in the game be able to 1-2 shot me. I'm not interested in spending 10+ minutes fighting a single mob (or pack).

Nah, I think the majority agrees with you. Honestly, that type of play is very very niche in my opinion. I really enjoy dark souls/insanity modes/battle toads etc. I get a real gratifying feeling out of beating stuff like that. But most people won't enjoy that, and it'd be entirely selfish to want things to stay that way in diablo 3.

In WoW, if someone didn't want to raid, there were still a lot of things they could do. In diablo 3, if you don't want to play Inferno...well...there's not really much else you can do. Make a new character I suppose, but that only goes so far and most people are attached to their character (Alt syndrome aside).

I just beat inferno right now, an hour before it gets nerfed. I enjoyed the whole way through it. But I'm glad it's getting nerfed, because my friends and other people need to enjoy the game more too.

[Elric of Grans]

Even if you make new characters, there are really only five characters. Get five to 60 and you have done it all. Blizzard have really staked the entire end-game on farming Inferno.

[MongoJerry]

Even if you make new characters, there are really only five characters. Get five to 60 and you have done it all. Blizzard have really staked the entire end-game on farming Inferno.

And then you can stop practicing and roll hardcore characters.

But we all know that once we're comfortably able to farm Inferno, the Lurker set will start leveling up characters with oddball builds and restrictions. Sure, you *can* switch skills around with your main character, but it won't be as much fun as leveling him or her up with the skillset along the way and adding limitations like "only uses items he or she finds." There's a lot of replayability allowed in the game. We just haven't seen it, yet, because people are still focused on finishing the game the first time. (Or, are focused on being able to finish the game comfortably without having to run screaming from half the elite mobs in softcore).

And, of course, when 1.1 comes out, PvP will be a popular option as well.

[Bolty]

And then you can stop practicing and roll hardcore characters.

And you can stop practicing in the easy modes of the game (Normal, Nightmare, Hell) and start playing the real difficulty (Inferno) where everyone else is, with gear that's not so ridiculously overpowered for the zone you're currently in that you have almost no chance of dying.

Ah, see, we can play this "I'm superior to you" game both ways, now. It's childish; stop it.

Of course, now that they're nerfing Inferno, you'll never have the opportunity to see what everyone was talking about.

[Yricyn]

I'm guessing that even post nerf, inferno is going to be very, very hard. In all honesty, I can't imagine playing HC in Diablo 3, and I had multiple D2 Guardians.

[Tal]

I've had offers from people to help me get over the current hump and to level 60 so I can start playing Inferno. I'm just not sure from what I've read that it will be something I want to do. I play the game for fun and a challenge. Not to be frustrated by a grind.

So Bolty, Lissa and Quark bumrushed me to 60 and through hell Diablo. Guess I get to see nerfed Inferno mode.

Thanks guys. I'll be here in the corner, crying.

[MongoJerry]

And you can stop practicing in the easy modes of the game (Normal, Nightmare, Hell) and start playing the real difficulty (Inferno) where everyone else is, with gear that's not so ridiculously overpowered for the zone you're currently in that you have almost no chance of dying.

Softcore is easy mode in all difficulties. Move on from Inferno softcore and play normal difficulty hardcore.

And it's not about me being a better player. I know I'm not, and I bow down to Frag as a better player in all ways. But at some point, you should take on the challenge, if/when you get bored of softcore. It is a very different game than softcore, and you might actually find it more fun.

Not sure where you're getting the whole gear thing from, though. That was cheap and out of left field. I just started my farming runs in upper hell again after a couple of fits and starts and am getting ready to make my jump into Inferno. I wish they weren't nerfing Inferno, actually, but at least Act I won't change. Come join the hardcore crew and show us how it's done.

But anyway, the point of my original post was to say there's a lot more to do than just level 5 characters up. You can play hardcore, you will be able to play PvP, or you can play alternative characters. There are a lot more possibilities than Elric gives the game credit for.