Unemployment, and so on

[Jester]

I mean, are gay rights, abortion, and such an issue in the rest of the western world?

Yes?

-Jester

[DeeBye]

Yes?

I'm pretty sure he means that the rest of the world (1st world countries - do I have to clarify that?) don't place nearly the emphasis on abortion and gay rights issues as the US does. There are more important things to campaign on.

This is certainly true in Canada. The debates are pretty much settled here. Abortion is legal and on-demand, and same-sex marriages are the law at a federal level. Every now and then a conservative member of parliament tries to oppose one or the other, but the results have been a support of both, and have been for years.

In our last federal election, the ultra-conservative Christian Heritage Party (283% more conservative than our Conservative Party!) didn't even run on a platform that would outlaw abortion. They of course oppose it, but the only thing they said they would do would be to eliminate federal funding for abortions. The CHP is pretty much a joke and received a total of 18,910 votes out of almost 15 million ballots cast in our 2011 federal election. Our Conservative Party doesn't oppose abortion or same-sex marriages and received 5,835,270 votes and garnered a majority government.

The Conservative Party of Canada is more liberal than the Democrats in the US. In fact the only party we have in Canada that would be roughly analogous to the Republican Party is the CHP.

I talk too much about Canadian political parties.

[eppie]

Yes?

I'm pretty sure he means that the rest of the world (1st world countries - do I have to clarify that?) don't place nearly the emphasis on abortion and gay rights issues as the US does. There are more important things to campaign on.

Also in the Netherlands these are often not very important issues, but it is a fact that a significant part of CDA voters (a party that is economically center but has a christian background) do this because of a more conservative view on abortion and gay rights etc. (even though the real conservatives vote for smaller christian parties.....but which in total are still around 3 to 4 % of the voters). Of course with an increasing number of Muslim immigrants the old christian values become more popular again (a reasonable number of Muslim voters votes on christian parties because they are closest to their ideas).

[kandrathe]

Our political culture in general is a joke...

I think you over-estimate the number of single issue voters. Pro-life/Pro-Choice may account for as much as 10%. Toss in "defense of marriage"/Gay rights and you may get to 15%. There are probably just as many single issue pro-choice, gay marriage, and environmentalists on the left, and contrary on the right. The studies I've seen break them out to about 19% in total, and they are pretty equally split between left and right. By examining some studies of the electorate, you'd find that the bulk of them actually have a series of priorities that guide their voting. And... I doubt "beer drinking buddy" made the top twenty. Here is a good article about why American voters are different. I would highlight a couple;

1) our system is very complicated, with local, state, and federal levels, each emphasizing different issues. Judges, for example, are not affiliated with parties, and are not allowed to campaign, so how do we know which judge would support our way of thinking? How well do you know your county Soil and Water commissioners? How about the local school board? At the last caucus I attended, we had over 60 initiatives to discuss and vote on and finally adjourned after 5 hours of meeting.

2) in our daily lives, we don't really need to know much about "Uzbecka-becka-becka-stan-stan". The US is increasingly doing more business with the outside world, but for most of us it is not a part of our routine. And, as for travel, I don't know many people in my father's generation who left the US except during their military service. More traveled during my generation, but now its reduced again due to the difficulty traveling and the forced weakness of the US dollar. For my work (and some pleasure too) I've been to Europe, Africa, Asia, Central, and South America, but I've still not visited my cousins living in Alaska. I've never been to Hawaii, or a bunch of other cool places here in the US. I've never really seen the best parts of Canada, or Mexico either (really just the scummy parts).

As for "birthers", I think you are reaching on that one. As of May 1st 2011, 86% said he was born in the US, 9% said not in the US, and 4% had no opinion. Of the not US group, only 1% were certain about that.

You seem to spend a bunch of energy hating your own country. You might want to look around and see if there is a different one that is more Marxist, with more of the qualities you are looking for, where you can take an extended visit. Get a work visa, and spend some time living in another system for awhile. You might find you like it, or you might find the US is not as bad as you think.

Some may say that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Many people use the word "got" as a substitute for the word "have", and many people feel they have to salt their prose with expletives for incendiary effect. Me? I understand, although I find it a bit arrogant. Others might find it coarse.

---

Also in the Netherlands these are often not very important issues, but it is a fact that a significant part of CDA voters (a party that is economically center but has a christian background) do this because of a more conservative view on abortion and gay rights etc. (even though the real conservatives vote for smaller christian parties.....but which in total are still around 3 to 4 % of the voters). Of course with an increasing number of Muslim immigrants the old christian values become more popular again (a reasonable number of Muslim voters votes on christian parties because they are closest to their ideas).

Well, I like to look at numbers...

Gallup World Poll

The US doesn't rate that badly. The Netherlands and Canada are on the top of the spectrum. But, you might want to be more concerned with some of your eastern neighbors, and the whole of Africa. For the US, the city where I live is rated #1 gay friendly by "The Advocate". Although, the legislature just put a DOMA constitutional amendment on our 2012 ballot.

[eppie]

We don't rate that badly. The Netherlands and Canada are on the top of the spectrum. You might want to be more concerned with some of your eastern neighbors, and the whole of Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Re..._situation
7 out of 150 seats are for anti abortion parties(etc) and 21 for a party which would not initiate such discussion but would enable stricter abortion laws.
Then there are a few parties which would support these things after having traded them out for other issues (VVD/PVV).

OF course our parties are not so extremist. I guess even the small christian parties are comparable or more moderate than the democrats in the US. (but that is my opinion).

So yes it is a discussion in the Netherlands but more because we always were the (or on of the) most progressive countries in the world. And where in the US there is still an ongoing fight for the rights of euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, in the Netherlands at the moment we seem to be going the other way again. (because of a continuous movement to the right in dutch politics for the last 20 years).

---

You might find you like it, or you might find the US is not as bad as you think.

I think most of people in Europe will see that the US is not as bad as their uninformed minds think.
However probably most uninformed Americans would see that the US is not as good as they think.

[Jester]

I'm pretty sure he means that the rest of the world (1st world countries - do I have to clarify that?) don't place nearly the emphasis on abortion and gay rights issues as the US does. There are more important things to campaign on.

Sure. But two things. First, they are issues, even in Canada. They're not as big as in the states, but certainly over in Alberta, gay marriage was not a popular decision. Remember that Klein even threatened to invoke the notwithstanding clause. Alberta was only dragged into accepting gay marriage when it became federal law.

Second, the first world is not restricted to the Anglosphere. Italy, for instance, still has neither civil unions nor gay marriage. Nor in developed East Asia (Japan, Taiwan, etc...) nor in Eastern Europe (Poland, Greece, etc...). That's a lot of the first world, there. Abortion rights are more widespread, but Ireland, Poland, South Korea and even Japan to some extent make it illegal except for certain cases.

So, this is not just a US thing. FIT did not claim they were slightly less contentious issues; he claimed they weren't issues at all.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

However probably most uninformed Americans would see that the US is not as good as they think.

There are parts of living in Europe that I really wish were here in America, and if you look hard enough you find little bits of it.

Like the market... around here, every Thursday, we have more of an everything wholesale market day, with fish, meat, vegetables, fruits, crafts, and flowers all in the same big market. The Minneapolis market is held on the weekend near/under a huge freeway bridge, not the more picturesque market square, and on Thursday they move onto a pedestrian/bus only street in the heart of the city.

But, by and large, the majority of people go to big mega-shopping markets and buy fresh food that will keep for a week or two, and mostly frozen and preserved food.

I like better that youth sports, and extra curricular activities are parts of clubs and not commingled with the secondary school education. We end up spending too much money buying and maintaining things that are not core to education, rather than teaching things like politics, economics, or American or European history.

But, here are some things I like more about America;

1) Somewhat lower taxes... I feel I have more control over how my earnings are spent and donated. Were I compelled to save and start a new business, I still think it would be easier to do here, than in Europe. And, it would probably be much easier in some parts of Asia than in the US.

2) Since Americans have more of their income, more of it is disposable, and so it is easier to convince them to part with some of it in trade for the product or service offered. My European relatives and friends are much more money conscious, and so in a way we are more care free, and probably detrimentally and annoyingly so.

3) Often in Europe I feel like everything is "done", like every shop already exists, and all the land is owned. There is not much that is "new" to do there. Like, if I wanted to own a house in a particular village I'd either need to marry into it, or wait for the rare opportunity that someone decides to sell rather than pass down the family heritage to a relative.

4) I find people in stores are much more helpful, even to the point of being annoyingly helpful. But, that is better than some of the dispassionate/bad service I've seen/had in parts of Europe. Although, I've also been witness to amazing acts of generosity and kindness as well.

5) While I complain about the lack of a quaint shopping experience, I also find when I'm time strapped that it is helpful to make a list, go to one store, and get everything I need from hardware, art supplies, to groceries.

6) Root beer, pizza, and strawberry milk shakes. There are certain things we really really do well. But, then again, there is nothing like a gelato on the Piazza Santa Croce, German home town beers, or Belgian chocolates.

7) Our roads are actually big enough to fit two cars passing each other, often with plenty of shoulder room for cyclists.

8) I grouse about how much we waste entertaining ourselves, but then again, we have all this great entertainment. In my youth, I actually was able to shake BB Kings hand at a blues bar in Chicago, and Joan Jett's bass player threw his guitar pick at me after she agreed to play the song I suggested. I been stoned with my friends at Grateful Dead and Led Zepplin concerts, and I've been a raving lunatic in mosh pits at groups from the Violent Femmes, to Red Hot Chili Peppers. But, my spending priorities are different now. I do like the Eurovision contest though.

[FireIceTalon]

Yes?

I'm pretty sure he means that the rest of the world (1st world countries - do I have to clarify that?) don't place nearly the emphasis on abortion and gay rights issues as the US does. There are more important things to campaign on.

This is certainly true in Canada. The debates are pretty much settled here. Abortion is legal and on-demand, and same-sex marriages are the law at a federal level. Every now and then a conservative member of parliament tries to oppose one or the other, but the results have been a support of both, and have been for years.

In our last federal election, the ultra-conservative Christian Heritage Party (283% more conservative than our Conservative Party!) didn't even run on a platform that would outlaw abortion. They of course oppose it, but the only thing they said they would do would be to eliminate federal funding for abortions. The CHP is pretty much a joke and received a total of 18,910 votes out of almost 15 million ballots cast in our 2011 federal election. Our Conservative Party doesn't oppose abortion or same-sex marriages and received 5,835,270 votes and garnered a majority government.

The Conservative Party of Canada is more liberal than the Democrats in the US. In fact the only party we have in Canada that would be roughly analogous to the Republican Party is the CHP.

I talk too much about Canadian political parties.

Precisely what I meant

The terms conservative and liberal are difficult, because what may pass as conservative in one country, could be liberal in another or vice versa. Your conservative party in Canada would be considered fairly liberal here in the US, at least on those particular social issues. The US is generally, a very very conservative and/or center-right nation (much to my dismay) in comparison to most other first-world nations. Obama is labeled a socialist here by the extreme right, but he is much further to the right than a true socialist such as myself, or most of the Social Democrats in Europe (who are still a bit further to the right than I am, but certainly to the left of Obama). From my perspective, Obama is a centrist, and I'd guess most American democrats would be considered a conservative party in Western European nations, maybe Canada too (I don't know enough about Canadian politics to be certain)? Liberal is especially a difficult term because it has so many meanings. Conservatives tend to have liberal economic policies (neo-liberalism), but this doesn't make them liberals in the political context. I think a big problem in the US (and this may be true in Europe and Canada too, I have no idea) is semantics. Too many people throw terms and isms' around without knowing what they mean, so they become pejoratives or lose their meaning altogether.

[FireIceTalon]

Our political culture in general is a joke...

I think you over-estimate the number of single issue voters. Pro-life/Pro-Choice may account for as much as 10%. Toss in "defense of marriage"/Gay rights and you may get to 15%. There are probably just as many single issue pro-choice, gay marriage, and environmentalists on the left, and contrary on the right. The studies I've seen break them out to about 19% in total, and they are pretty equally split between left and right. By examining some studies of the electorate, you'd find that the bulk of them actually have a series of priorities that guide their voting. And... I doubt "beer drinking buddy" made the top twenty. Here is a good article about why American voters are different. I would highlight a couple;

1) our system is very complicated, with local, state, and federal levels, each emphasizing different issues. Judges, for example, are not affiliated with parties, and are not allowed to campaign, so how do we know which judge would support our way of thinking? How well do you know your county Soil and Water commissioners? How about the local school board? At the last caucus I attended, we had over 60 initiatives to discuss and vote on and finally adjourned after 5 hours of meeting.

2) in our daily lives, we don't really need to know much about "Uzbecka-becka-becka-stan-stan". The US is increasingly doing more business with the outside world, but for most of us it is not a part of our routine. And, as for travel, I don't know many people in my father's generation who left the US except during their military service. More traveled during my generation, but now its reduced again due to the difficulty traveling and the forced weakness of the US dollar. For my work (and some pleasure too) I've been to Europe, Africa, Asia, Central, and South America, but I've still not visited my cousins living in Alaska. I've never been to Hawaii, or a bunch of other cool places here in the US. I've never really seen the best parts of Canada, or Mexico either (really just the scummy parts).

As for "birthers", I think you are reaching on that one. As of May 1st 2011, 86% said he was born in the US, 9% said not in the US, and 4% had no opinion. Of the not US group, only 1% were certain about that.

You seem to spend a bunch of energy hating your own country. You might want to look around and see if there is a different one that is more Marxist, with more of the qualities you are looking for, where you can take an extended visit. Get a work visa, and spend some time living in another system for awhile. You might find you like it, or you might find the US is not as bad as you think.

Some may say that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Many people use the word "got" as a substitute for the word "have", and many people feel they have to salt their prose with expletives for incendiary effect. Me? I understand, although I find it a bit arrogant. Others might find it coarse.

---

Also in the Netherlands these are often not very important issues, but it is a fact that a significant part of CDA voters (a party that is economically center but has a christian background) do this because of a more conservative view on abortion and gay rights etc. (even though the real conservatives vote for smaller christian parties.....but which in total are still around 3 to 4 % of the voters). Of course with an increasing number of Muslim immigrants the old christian values become more popular again (a reasonable number of Muslim voters votes on christian parties because they are closest to their ideas).

Well, I like to look at numbers...

Gallup World Poll

The US doesn't rate that badly. The Netherlands and Canada are on the top of the spectrum. But, you might want to be more concerned with some of your eastern neighbors, and the whole of Africa. For the US, the city where I live is rated #1 gay friendly by "The Advocate". Although, the legislature just put a DOMA constitutional amendment on our 2012 ballot.

I lack patriotism or nationalism, for which I have my reasons. But equating that with hating the country is dubious. Truth is I'm indifferent about it. I have a very different set of values and principles that most of my fellow Americans. Hardly means I hate it though. Just means I don't buy into the so-called 'American exceptionalism' that most everyone else seems to subscribe to. I pride myself in being an independent thinker, and I don't easily conform to mainstream views based on conventional values and politics that we are taught from a very young age. America is no angel. Neither is Iran, or Turkey, or Cuba, or Germany.

---

You guys should do this if you haven't yet.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Pretty cool scale they use, and I like their methodology. My results - Economic scale: -8.50, Social scale: -7.50....pretty much what I expected, I'm a Libertarian socialist.

[Jester]

Pretty cool scale they use, and I like their methodology. My results - Economic scale: -8.50, Social scale: -7.0....pretty much what I expected, I'm a Libertarian socialist.

A few of the propositions grate a little, since I tend to be for particular policy rather than vague tendencies. Nevertheless:

Economic: -3.88, Social, -7.69.

-Jester

[FireIceTalon]

I kind of wish it had a "moderate" or "centrist" option, because there were a few things presented that I'm on the line about. The cool thing about this, you can really differentiate now between figures who appear to have similar politics, but in fact are very different. Also pretty useful for seeing the different branches within a particular political ideology: You can see the differences between an orthodox/left Marxist like myself, and a Marxist-Leninist such as Castro, who would be about the same on the economic scale as me, but be much farther up on the social scale than, for example.

[NuurAbSaal]

Pretty cool scale they use, and I like their methodology. My results - Economic scale: -8.50, Social scale: -7.0....pretty much what I expected, I'm a Libertarian socialist.

A few of the propositions grate a little, since I tend to be for particular policy rather than vague tendencies. Nevertheless:

Economic: -3.88, Social, -7.69.

-Jester

That was fun.

Economic: -6.50 (ignorance, I guess )
Social: -7.69

take care
Tarabulus

[Treesh]

You guys should do this if you haven't yet.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I really don't trust the results from the survey considering how they framed a lot of the questions, but eh.

Economic Left/Right: -4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.64

[DeeBye]

So, this is not just a US thing.

It's absolutely not a US-only thing. I don't think I said otherwise.

And I grant you 5 points for bringing up Ralph Klein. Bless his drunken heart

Earlier in the question period he also had to apologize for calling Liberal leader Kevin Taft a liar on the floor of the legislature, which is considered unparliamentary language. His apology consisted of saying, "Sorry, Mr. Speaker. I won't use the word 'fib.' I'll say that he doesn't tell the whole truth all the time - most of the time."

[kandrathe]

... But equating that with hating the country is dubious. Truth is I'm indifferent about it.

It doesn't come across that way. You use the word "hate" quite often to describe your ideological adversaries (most everyone to the right of you). I mean, you must realize that you are on one end of the bell curve here, yes? In order to even have a reasonable conversation with 98% of the world you're going to need to move pretty far out of your comfort zone.

From your general stated opinions, I've just gathered that you find the American political system "a joke". You've no love for Capitalism, or the American economic system. And, you "hate" at least half the population, if not more. Plus, you find the majority of Americans are "idiots" who vote either for a single issue, or the person they'd like to have a beer with.

Your description is a pretty negative indictment of the US. My only intent was to poke holes in that picture with some facts, and not to convert you into a flag waving patriot.

[eppie]

I do like the Eurovision contest though.

Ooo nice list!
When I am finished working I will make one myself.
Spot on for most of the points I think.

However Europe has a lot of differences. Countries like Poland, Italy and Sweden are a lot more american than you think. Probably having more space (lower population density) has a lot to do with this.


And I guess it has to do with your age but the chilli peppers are pretty mellow. Never been to an Obituary or Sepultura concert?

---

I mean, you must realize that you are on one end of the bell curve here, yes? In order to even have a reasonable conversation with 98% of the world you're going to need to move pretty far out of your comfort zone.

If you basically look at government probably yes but in the west there has been going on a huge movement to the right the last 20 years.
This has to do with an effective 'campaign' from the right wing (especially the economic right wing) to hate everything that is leftish.
Likely in a few years this will shift again like it always does but at the moment it is like that.
But if you really would ask teh guy on the street his opinion about lots of things he would be economically more to the left than how he voted.
I mentioned some time ago that the asked americans about all kinds of socioeconomic questions and it turned out they could pretty much agree with how Sweden is doing things.

It might be caused by the fact that loving capitilism and hating lefty's is being seen as patriotism. A lefty can just as well be patriotic.**


My point being; 98% seems a bit over the top.


** side note; patriotism is a bit dumb......unless when supporting your national football team-

[FireIceTalon]

... But equating that with hating the country is dubious. Truth is I'm indifferent about it.

It doesn't come across that way. You use the word "hate" quite often to describe your ideological adversaries (most everyone to the right of you). I mean, you must realize that you are on one end of the bell curve here, yes? In order to even have a reasonable conversation with 98% of the world you're going to need to move pretty far out of your comfort zone.

From your general stated opinions, I've just gathered that you find the American political system "a joke". You've no love for Capitalism, or the American economic system. And, you "hate" at least half the population, if not more. Plus, you find the majority of Americans are "idiots" who vote either for a single issue, or the person they'd like to have a beer with.

Your description is a pretty negative indictment of the US. My only intent was to poke holes in that picture with some facts, and not to convert you into a flag waving patriot.

Alot of it is heat of the moment man. For as much as I criticize the Tea Party for instance, I can't say I hate each and every one of them personally. I do not know most of them. Do I disagree with their views and ideology? Yes. In fact, I would even go as far to say that it is Tea Party ideology that I scorn, not really the Tea Partiers themselves. Once again, I don't know many of them personally. I would guess many of them are normal good, hard working citizens that mean well, who happen to be misguided regarding the circumstances around them. Many of my rants really depend on the mood I'm in. I can go over the top sometimes. Dont take everything I say to heart, lot of its just piss n' vinegar .

You are absolutely right about my feelings toward capitalism though. Hate isn't a strong enough word to describe my feelings toward this most evil, barbaric and cruel system, which has impoverished, killed and caused more human suffering than I care to know. The best capitalism will ever get from me is that I view it as a necessary stage in history to develop the world industrially, until the world finally wakes up and comes to its senses, realizes just how barbaric it is, and we transfer into a true democratic system of LIBERTARIAN socialism. And yes, I do believe this will happen. Sadly, it will probably take another 200 years+, so it does not matter for us. But yes, I have nothing but contempt for the system that is capitalism aka barbarism. The true heroes of history are the common man, like you and me, the ones we never (or rarely) read about in the history books. One day we will be emancipated. Power to the people, peace to humanity.

[kandrathe]

Many of my rants really depend on the mood I'm in. I can go over the top sometimes. Dont take everything I say to heart, lot of its just piss n' vinegar .

You do see the issue then with people taking you seriously? When would we know whether what you write is "true" or whimsy?

For me... Passion is placed in how well I research and rationalize my position, and not in how salty or inflammatory I can make the rhetoric. However passionate I might be for a topic, I understand that making unsubstantiated or false claims undermines the credibility of my position. Most of the people here, and gamers in general have an above average ability in critical thinking.

... One day we will be emancipated. Power to the people, peace to humanity.

I'm more in the camp of appreciating what I have. The minor issues that we experiencing are probably correctable in the system we have rather than upsetting the cart and introduce a potentially greater problem. Many great evils began with the best of intentions, and resulted in riots, forced marches, purges, gulags or guillotines.

About 6 months ago, here on the Lounge, I expressed a sense that the system is rigged, and that we are trapped "working for the man" with little reward and too much risk. I realize now that it is the same type of expression fueling the "Occupy" movement. But, I don't necessarily blame only Capitalism, or Wallstreet, or Corporations, or the government (although for me the government is the most corrupt). Each contribute to the whole of the problem, which is that most of us ordinary people are trapped in a economic pit where the sides are too steep for us too climb toward that dream of upward social mobility. I think this is the true American Dream, that we can use our talents and efforts to improve our lives and those of our children. Unlike the Marxian social utopia, I want things to be based more meritocratically. You don't get an equal share of the pie. everyone gets an equal place at the table, everyone gets enough to eat, and after that, you get the serving you deserve based on your value to the society.

American Exceptionalism was never about "we are better". As observed by people like Alexis De Tocqueville, it was more about our emergence and differences from Europe as a new democracy, with a uniquely American ideology, based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and more laissez-faire. Perhaps we've diverted too far away from those ideals to be thought of that way anymore.

Some 12,000 or so lobbyists in Washington are one of the connections between the "1%", and the system that keeps the "1%" in their gravy. Unlike the "occupy" movement though, I don't have the same issue with the "1%". I blame the elected representatives of the people for not representing the people, and being corrupted by their own selfishness and greed. I blame the electorate for not standing up for themselves better, and choosing candidates who will strike down the unfairness within the current system. If the Tea Party can do that, or the Occupy movement can do that, then I'm all for either of them.

[FireIceTalon]

I agree with most of that. Me and Kandrathe agreeing on something, guess pigs can fly! Our government for the most part does suck, and does not represent the people as they were elected to do so. But you must also remember, politicians are most responsive to those that make the most noise. And the 1% (or even 5%) have the finances and "political" capital to make A LOT of noise, much more than the average joe. I have more political power than a homeless person (since they dont even vote), or someone who doesn't vote or protest, or who isn't informed on politics in general. But I have far less than a corporation or Wall Street Banker. As screwed as our government is, nothing will change until we take some power away from the organizations who PULL THE STRINGS of government: the corporations. At the end of the day, politicians want to keep their power and get re-elected. This is why I think the American public needs to be much more politically astute and participate more. If they did, I think this would make the politicians more responsive to their will and needs. I hate blaming the people, but at the end of the day, it is on US TO make it happen. Until we do, the government will only be responsive to those who have the loudest voices: those with great wealth, political clout or otherwise some type of prestige. If you want my opinion, I say all of us, next year, should vote for someone who is running outside the Republican or Democratic parties. This would make a huge statement. The two party system has to go. Would be awesome if neither Obama or one of the Republican runners got a single vote

Marxist theory, from how I envision it at least, would make society more of a meritocracy. Contrary to popular belief, it DOES acknowledge that we are not all equal in terms of our ability. Not all of us are going to be brain surgeons or engineers. And what you put in, is what you get. Yes, there would be many safety nets so those who are lazy would still be taken care of so they did not fall through the cracks, but if they wanted more, such as luxuries or to travel and have the finer things in life, then they would be required to be more productive to obtain them. Does this create a free-rider problem? This is one of the common criticisms of socialism, and to a degree, it would indeed be a problem. No system is perfect (not even my beloved Marxism), but I would rather see this problem than millions be impoverished, die, or otherwise distressed by the social and economic disparities created by the division of labor in capitalism. And most people, to at least some degree, want to work. Americans especially, are workaholics. It is my belief that most people would still choose to be productive in a socialist system, and those who aren't, will receive less than those who are. The idea of Marxism isn't to give everyone the same luxuries so we all live like kings, but rather to make sure everyone's BASIC NEEDS are provided, and to reduce crime, poverty, war, and such to the absolute possible minimum.

[kandrathe]

Our government for the most part does suck...

Ideally, no. I do think our structure is for the most part sound. Certain unchecked power grabs by the Executive Branch, too many reams of really bad legislation, and some horrendous Supreme Court decisions have tipped the balance of power away from the people. But, all in all, it's not too bad.

... and does not represent the people as they were elected to do so.

And that is the rub for me.

...nothing will change until we take some power away from the organizations who PULL THE STRINGS of government: the corporations.

I disagree. We won't change anything until we eliminate the strings entirely. As long as there are puppets, there will always be someone new willing to step in and pull the strings. We need to eliminate the ability of politicians to act as puppets, and this is something we can control.

At the end of the day, politicians want to keep their power and get re-elected. This is why I think the American public needs to be much more politically astute and participate more. If they did, I think this would make the politicians more responsive to their will and needs. I hate blaming the people, but at the end of the day, it is on US TO make it happen. Until we do, the government will only be responsive to those who have the loudest voices: those with great wealth, political clout or otherwise some type of prestige.

All well and good, but we can't make them. We need to deal with the reality of what we have. I happen to live in one of those States that has 75% plus participation, which is really very good.

That would be great for us if the Fed were less powerful. I don't believe it was meant to be this way, and I feel the electoral structure was built for a weak federal government and strong State governments. It was our Civil war, and WWII that mucked it up. My State is not as bad off as some of the smaller states, but still our lives and livelihoods are controlled by the big states and their representatives. Six states (New York 29, California 53, Texas 32, Florida 25, Michigan 15, and Illinois 19) control about 40% of the House.

If you want my opinion, I say all of us, next year, should vote for someone who is running outside the Republican or Democratic parties. This would make a huge statement. The two party system has to go. Would be awesome if neither Obama or one of the Republican runners got a single vote

Ok, back to reality.

... but I would rather see this problem than millions be impoverished, die, or otherwise distressed by the social and economic disparities created by the division of labor in capitalism.

I don't really see impoverished people dying around here... It's economically bad, but still, we're along way from the tar paper shacks, and soup kitchens of the last depression. I'm worried about young people, say 20 to 30, finding meaningful careers, but we're really not suffering. But, then again, much of this lack of pain may be due to our borrowing 40% of our federal spending. Were we to raise taxes to cover our deficit, then I fear we'd feel some real pain.

On my way to work today I was listening to PJ O'Rourke briefly on the radio today. He was talking about things he's been witness to in his life as a journalist, and one of the most striking for him has been how billions of people around Asia and Africa have been lifted out of real poverty and misery. It's not Capitalism that has done that to them, but rather the ravages of Colonialism, and neglect by super powers who've been more interested in a chess game of puppet dictators, and geopolitical influence. That is not to say that there has not also been predatory exploitation by 1st world corporations... My studies of starvation in Africa show it to be more related to political strife, rather than deprivation at the hands of the wealthy. If anything, the wealthy are guilty of sins of omission (not doing enough), rather than commission.

When my great-grandmother came to America in 1880's, she lived in a sod house out on the Great Plains, which was mostly a hole in the ground. I don't have it that bad really.