A sign of the times

[Mavfin]

But, am I the only one who is bothered by the blurring of fact and fiction? Disturbed by people who think 'reality' shows are real? Upset that so many think professional wrestling isn't faked?

--Pete

It all comes down to what anyone who works in IT or other repair/customer service type work knows: People, in general, are stupid.

[Concillian]

I present the most obvious and well documented case of "people are dumb" I know of:
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-2315.html

short summary:
- Ballot measure gets put on the ballot
- special election happens in the meantime that obsoletes the measure, but it's already been put on the ballot, so it must be voted for
- Voter information pamphlet goes out. The "for" argument is all caps "DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS PROPOSITION" then a brief paragraph explaining it got obsoleted. Nobody submitted rebuttal or against arguments.
- Election happens and 42% of voters voted for the propositon.

This happened to be the largest margin of victory or defeat of any of the propositions in the election, which suggests something like 80% of the voting body is randomly choosing without adequate research. One would also assume that non-voters are, on average, even less able to make good decisions.

[Jester]

One would also assume that non-voters are, on average, even less able to make good decisions.

One of the most important principles of democracy - representatives owe the people their judgement, not their blind servitude. Just because the people say X or Y, doesn't mean that's what should automatically become law, without careful deliberation.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

One of the most important principles of democracy - representatives owe the people their judgment, not their blind servitude. Just because the people say X or Y, doesn't mean that's what should automatically become law, without careful deliberation.

A leader of Renaissance Florence once said that democracy is a system where opinions are counted, not weighed. That is why we have a republican democracy, because the founding fathers were well enough versed in history to see what a shambles the Greek democracies had been, and how much better the Roman republic worked (at least till the power was centered in a small group). The idea of having people select their leaders and then letting the leaders do their job makes sense. Most people don't have the time or the background to understand the issues in the detail necessary to make intelligent choices. Pure democracy is mob rule. I feel that the initiative, referendum, and, to a lesser extent, recall policies add too much power to the people and chaos to the government. I love Jefferson, but I agree with Hamilton.

--Pete

[Jim]

What happens when pre-pubescent, hormonal and “invincible” young boys watch a show like “Jackass?“ In 2001, a small town in Connecticut found out when 13-year-old Jason Lind and his two friends attempted to recreate a stunt performed by Johnny Knoxville on an episode of “Jackass” just a few nights prior. The stunt as performed by Knoxville involved donning a fire retardant suit with steaks hanging from it and grilling them over a massive barbecue. Lind only took from such a stunt that lighting another person on fire is funny, and thus he and his friends poured gasoline on his feet and legs and lit him on fire. Rushed to the hospital with third degree burns, Lind was placed in the burn unit under critical condition and one of his friends was arrested for reckless endangerment.

It's a shame he didn't kill himself and improve the human gene pool.

Hi,

Lenny your death wish comment is not representative of us here at the lurker lounge. We have a good debate on all subjects but we do Not wish harm to others.

This is from the Fireman's forum @ firehouse.com: http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15422

01-30-2001, 06:37 PM #27
nomad1085
Firehouse.com Guest
It was a pretty dumb thing to do, he and his "friend" should have known better then that.

[This message has been edited by nomad1085 (edited 02-02-2001).]

--------------------------------
01-30-2001, 07:51 PM #28
comwhite
Firehouse.com Guest

Nomad,

I can't believe you actually wrote something like that. Yeah, he should've known better, but at 13 years old you do stupid things. Hell, at 16 years old you do stupid things. Would you have felt the same way, if you went to an MVA, and found a beautiful 16 year old torn apart, only to find out she was drunk when it happened.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be judgmental, but that remark was insensitive and cruel. Nothing like what I'd expect from someone whose profession it is to save lives.

[kandrathe]

Lenny your death wish comment is not representative of us here at the lurker lounge. We have a good debate on all subjects but we do Not wish harm to others.

Well, it's probably not entirely fair to beat up on poor LennyLen for saying what others may have been thinking.

But, in reality young Jason paid for his moment of stupidity. He experienced one of the most excruciating of all injuries, which takes many years to heal through, and is sheer hell to bear. And, once healed, will carry the scars and disfigurement throughout the rest of his life. I doubt he continues to be a big fan of the show (and a show that just based on the premise I refused to watch).

I never played around with any fuels growing up, maybe because there was a kid who rode my school bus who had been horribly burned by gasoline at age 7. He was my poster child for the hell one gets for a moments bad decision. I did do other stupid things though, for example, with fireworks. Thankfully, I lost no digits, and hair grows back.

[LennyLen]

Lenny your death wish comment is not representative of us here at the lurker lounge. We have a good debate on all subjects but we do Not wish harm to others.

Since I am a member here, any comment I make is just as representative of the members here as any comment made by anyone else.

I don't wish the kid harm personally (How could I since I've never met him). However, as a representative of a part of society that causes a definite threat to the rest of society, I can quite happily wish him into non-existence. I had to spend three months bedridden when someone of similar intelligence watched a movie that had a scene in it where a gang of kids in a car start swinging a baseball bat at cyclists to scare them. He decided to try it out on me, except that he actually hit me (in the back of the head), causing me to careen into a parked car and snap my collar-bone along the entire length from my arm to my neck. It took three surgeries to reassemble it. I've also nearly been severely burned when another idiot thought it would be funny to put a tin of petrol in an outdoor fireplace as a surprise. Luckily for me, I was in the process of sitting down when the fireball exploded out the fireplace, and I only lost half my hair and some skin off the back of my hands. Had I been standing for a few moments longer, I'd quite possibly be dead. So you can probably see why I'm somewhat intolerant of people who behave in such a manner. I also feel the same way about half the motorists on the road.

[--Pete]

Hi,

It's a shame he didn't kill himself and improve the human gene pool.

Lenny your death wish comment is not representative of us here at the lurker lounge. We have a good debate on all subjects but we do Not wish harm to others.

Sorry, Jim, but I disagree. You might not agree with Lenny's statement, but yours is not the only, or possibly even majority, opinion on this at the Lounge. Many of us find the Darwins Awards humorous. Some of us (me included) routinely make comments about 'retroactive birth control', 'natural selection', and 'chlorine in the gene pool'.

Besides, Lenny did not wish him harm. The kid did the harm to himself. Lenny just wished he'd finished the job -- a wish which I half humorously, half seriously, agree with.

Heinlein wrote "Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." Unfortunately, Heinlein used the wrong tense. At one time this was true, but no longer. When it was true, it helped us evolve intelligence. We then got smart enough to protect the stupid and stupid enough to do it. Since then, I strongly suspect, we've been evolving stupidity.

So, let me join Lenny. We could use more of that chlorine in that pool.

Jim, feel free to express your opinions. Feel free to disagree with that of others. But, by damn, do not try to force your PC stance on what, until now, has been a politically open forum.

--Pete

[Concillian]

While I agree in the benefit of darwin awards and dumb people killing themselves, I disagree that we should wish this kind of consequence on someone who hasn't matured enough to fully understand decisions and consequences.

We all did some dumb thing(s) when we were kids. Maybe they weren't enough to hospitalize anyone, but in some cases that's as much luck as judgement.

I don't agree that anyone should be given or wished a death sentence based on decisions made at 13. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, you have to admit that wishing someone dead because of a decision made at 13 is at least a little extremist.

[LennyLen]

someone who hasn't matured enough to fully understand decisions and consequences.

I think it's fairly safe to say that if, by the age of 13, you fail to understand the consequences of pouring petrol on something and then setting fire to it (especially when that something is yourself), then there is something very, very wrong going on.

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . you have to admit that wishing someone dead because of a decision made at 13 is at least a little extremist.

No, I don't. Best to nip the problem before it spreads.

Kidding aside, it has only been in the last few years (comparatively speaking) that a person of 13 years is considered a child. In many religions and many cultures, it is about then that a child becomes an adult (usually tied to puberty). Only recently has this changed. Now, because of the way we treat them, adolescents continue to act as children. I would expect a child of seven to know better than to set himself on fire, much less one of 13.

--Pete

[Concillian]

I never did anything as dumb as pouring gas on someone and lighting them on fire when I was older than 13, but I made some pretty bad judgements <18.

I'm not saying there wasn't something very wrong, I just think that there's a good chance it's from the parental side and you should at least give the guy a chance to mature outside the influence of that before you hand out a death sentence.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I never did anything as dumb as pouring gas on someone and lighting them on fire when I was older than 13, but I made some pretty bad judgements <18.

That was about the age I started making explosives. But I studied all I could find first, and built a bunker out of railroad ties and double layer 3/4" glass. And used simple, home made waldos. In retrospect, dangerous, but not stupid.

I'm not saying there wasn't something very wrong, I just think that there's a good chance it's from the parental side and you should at least give the guy a chance to mature outside the influence of that before you hand out a death sentence.

"A zygote is a gamete's way of producing more gametes. This may be the purpose of the universe." -- wow, I got to use two RAH quotes in one day . His genes are those of his parents. It is not him that we would be better off without, it is his genes. While much of this is in the spirit of jest, there is a strong underlying seriousness here. The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins explains this concept quite well (and, incidently, turns Heinlein's quip into a genetic law ).

The failure to prepare the young of the next generation is not a survival trait. The price is not paid by those who fail, but by their offspring. From the genetic viewpoint, it doesn't matter. It is not the individual, but the genes, that have to evolve.

--Pete

[Jim]

Hi,

***CORRECTION***

Lenny your Death wish comment does not represent "My" feeling toward this 13 year old who was hospitalized and in critical condition .

"I" like a good debate on all subjects, "I" do not wish harm to others.

EDIT: I Deleted it ALL *

=================
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[kandrathe]

By far the largest Darwinian actor of natural selection in our society is driving. Every year, teen drivers will seriously injure about 400,000 people, and about 5,000 (of ~39,000 MV fatalities) of these teens will die in traffic fatalities. Teen drivers (<20) account for 13% of all vehicle fatalities. So, yes, it's stupid for a 13 year old to douse himself with gasoline and light himself on fire. But, where I grew up I knew 17 and 18 year old teens who risked far worse (including all the other people on the road) driving their cars recklessly. In fact, I know of at least one of my class mates who (driving the wrong way on the highway) killed a car full of people, but not himself. The propensity for this type of moronic behavior is one of the reasons why once I left, I've never really wanted to return to the land of my youth.

[kandrathe]

One would also assume that non-voters are, on average, even less able to make good decisions.

Here, every year, we have to vote on county, and state judges, but judges are not allowed to campaign, or be affiliated with a political party. Consequently, no one knows a good judge from a crack-pot. People here obviously vote for judges based on their name alone. I do some inside research on the court dockets to at least figure out who the crackpot incumbents are, as they have a record. Many times they run unopposed though.

[ShadowHM]

Here, every year, we have to vote on county, and state judges, but judges are not allowed to campaign, or be affiliated with a political party. Consequently, no one knows a good judge from a crack-pot. People here obviously vote for judges based on their name alone. I do some inside research on the court dockets to at least figure out who the crackpot incumbents are, as they have a record. Many times they run unopposed though.

Following you off-topic, but I have to comment: Frankly, that only proves (once again) to me the folly of electing ALL your officials. Your implied solution of letting them campaign just doesn't address the problem. The average joe has no criteria for evaluating judicial competence and there (most emphatically) *should not* be any political slant to the decisions they hand down.

[kandrathe]

Here, every year, we have to vote on county, and state judges, but judges are not allowed to campaign, or be affiliated with a political party. Consequently, no one knows a good judge from a crack-pot. People here obviously vote for judges based on their name alone. I do some inside research on the court dockets to at least figure out who the crackpot incumbents are, as they have a record. Many times they run unopposed though.

Following you off-topic, but I have to comment: Frankly, that only proves (once again) to me the folly of electing ALL your officials. Your implied solution of letting them campaign just doesn't address the problem. The average joe has no criteria for evaluating judicial competence and there (most emphatically) *should not* be any political slant to the decisions they hand down.

I agree with you. It's another case of too much democracy. I would rather they be appointed by the governor for a short term(4 years), with a simple majority approval of the state senate. Currently, the electorate has no basis for deciding, and no way of evaluating their performance, and as you say, if they did have a way to evaluate them, they wouldn't know a good one from a bad one.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I would rather they be appointed by the governor for a short term(4 years), with a simple majority approval of the state senate.

I agree, except that I think it should be for life. Judges should be freed from all influence other than the law and their conscience.

Indeed, I believe the founding fathers had the right idea. Federally, the Senate represents the States, thus Senators should be selected any way the state wants to, but appointed by the governor and approved by the state legislature would probably be best. The president elected by the Electoral College, selected by each state in whatever way that state desires. The House, the biggest legislative body, elected directly by the people.

The movement toward electing all officials, referendum, voter initiative, recall, etc. is a movement toward direct democracy -- a synonym for mob rule. It would work, as would anarchy, if we had perfect people. We don't, so we need a compromise, a filter between the passions of the individuals and what is made into law.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

I agree, except that I think it should be for life. Judges should be freed from all influence other than the law and their conscience.

They can quit, so they can be influenced. I've just never seen anyone in an entrenched position continue to perform. I'm not opposed to the US supreme court having lifelong appointments, and even having longer terms for our federal judges in general. But, I think at the state level, and certainly county level there is no need for that level of entrenchment. Perhaps for State Supreme Courts, it would be acceptable.