Whirlwind Breakpoints

[Hammerman]

I think I already mentioned it.. but the very first attack (at 4th frame) will only use the left hand weapon to attack. Is that maybe what you're talking about?

[Loschonorg]

hi hammerman

may i illustrate once again for a (yet) definitive clarification?

constant variables:
1) dual wielding
2) both weapons 1hs at 4 frames (wias-wsm=35)
3) two targets within range

scenario 1
default weapon = left
calculate next delay (=4th frame)
found target 1 in range
attack target 1
switch weapons (weapon = right)
found target 2 in range
attack target 2

switch weapons (default weapon = right)
calculate next delay (=8th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x
switch weapons (weapon = left)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

switch weapons (default weapon = left)
calculate next delay (=12th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x
switch weapons (weapon = right)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

etc, etc...

scenario 2
default weapon = left
calculate next delay (=4th frame)
found target 1 in range
attack target 1

switch weapons (default weapon = right)
calculate next delay (=8th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

switch weapons (default weapon = left)
calculate next delay (=12th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x
switch weapons (weapon = right)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

switch weapons (default weapon = right)
calculate next delay (=16th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x
switch weapons (weapon = left)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

switch weapons (default weapon = left)
calculate next delay (=20th frame)
found target-x in range
attack target-x
switch weapons (weapon = right)
found target-x in range
attack target-x

etc, etc...

which one is the correct one? /me guesses scenario 1 is the right one but keeps fingers crossed.

thanks!

losc

[Zath]

Thank you for clarifying that, Hammerman. I think everyone can therefore agree that Barbarians who dual wield fast weapons would benefit from not reseting their WW attack sequence with short WWs. Allow me to elaborate on that point slightly:

If you WW with a single weapon...
* If real delay = 4, the duration of your WWs will have no significant impact on your damage output
* If real delay = 6, you gain roughly +6% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 8, you gain roughly +15% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 10, you gain roughly +17% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 12, you gain roughly +25% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 14, you gain roughly +28% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds

If you WW with two weapons that have identical real delays...
* If real delay = 4, you gain roughly +16% damage by increasing your WW duration from 1 to 2 seconds
* If real delay = 6, you gain roughly +7% damage by increasing your WW duration from 1 to 2 seconds
* If real delay = 8, the duration of your WWs will have no impact on your damage output
* If real delay = 10, you gain roughly +1% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 12, you gain roughly +6% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds
* If real delay = 14, you gain roughly +11% damage by reducing your WW duration from 2 to 1 seconds

The results above were obtained from a spreadsheet that calculated the average attack delay of WW every 4 frames up to 48 frames in duration, and comparing the 0 to 24 frame results with the 0 to 48 frame results. The derived damage bonuses will about double in value if we lengthen the test to compare 1 second WWs with 4 second WWs. As you can see, variations in player control can result in very divergent damage outputs for WW. For those of you that dual wield weapons with different WW real delays, you can estimate your WW performance by taking the average real delay of your weapons and comparing that to the second table above.

[Zath]

Loschonorg:

My post above was made with scenario #2, which is what I believe Hammerman to be saying: the first two free hits of a WW attack sequence only attack with one weapon each.

Edit: Clarification

[Loschonorg]

If We have 2 melee weapons [ESP+10]Number of Attack=2
otherwise [ESP+10]Number of attack=default=1

i still think scenario 1 is the right one. hehe let's hear it from the master. :)

losc

[loonygloss]

From reading it seem to me that both your scenarios are wrong, and the truth is halfway in between them.
Only the Frame 4 initial attack is a single weapon attack, the frame 8 one is double weapon possible.
That's how I read it anyway.

[Ruvanal]

From reading it seem to me that both your scenarios are wrong, and the truth is halfway in between them.
Only the Frame 4 initial attack is a single weapon attack, the frame 8 one is double weapon possible.
That's how I read it anyway.

This also matches what I am getting from reading the various posts (here and PK). In this case it would look like dual wielding is getting 50% more attacks (3 instead of 2 during the first 8 frames). It should start approching 100% more attacks on longer WW path runs, providing that there are at least 2 targets than can be attacked for the length of the runs.

[Zath]

*rubs magic lantern*

Hammerman, Hammerman, grant my wish. Does dual wielding affect free hits of Whirlwind?

[gal-z]

Hello guys!
Great work on WW mechanics.
I've done some testing, and everthing I've read here seems correct - the 2 "free hits" using 1 weapon every hit, then every hit using the "real delay" of ONE weapon and hitting 2 targets.
I've verified the delay more by the "feel" rather than number of hits per whirl, as hits per whirl also depend on ur move speed, monster size, and other stuff already mentioned. I was just seeing how often WW is hitting - a difference between 4, 6 and 8+ frames is really not hard to notice, though since "6 frames" means u hit 2 twice after every 3*4frames (according to the post on the keep) it's a little harder, but still noticeable.

When dual wielding, there were 2 cases:
1. WW starting in range of an enemy:
#1 (?) weapon hit first free hit (faster than other hits)
Both weapons hitting 2nd free hit (faster than other hits)
Then every hit there were 2 weapons hitting. Weapon speed seems to be based on the weapon which you do NOT use for bash, which again, seems to be fitting what u guys already posted.

2. WW starting FAR away from an enemy:
This is difficult to test, especially if the part of telling if u were far enough, but it seems it works as if u are in the "every 6 frames" mode.

3. WW starting close to enemy, but out of range:
It seems that if u get in range after the 1st hit check, it will take the speed of your bash weapon instead.

1 last thing I had difficulty testing, was if u start hitting monster, then go out of range, then start hitting them again. I know I got it once and the 2nd time I was in range it hit with the non-bash weapon's speed, but I don't really know if that was just random. It did happen more than once, but not enough for me to say it happens always.
Also the "bash" weapon seems to be the first weapon equipped, and appears in the barb's right hand on the play area. Char screen does not seem to matter at all. Didn't test what happens when u join a game thoguh.

So the only thing that looks wrong from your post is that you say the 2nd free hit is only with one weapon, and u never mentioned that if during the 1st free hit there's no1 in WW range, and in the 2nd there is, so the speed will be based on the bash weapon (right hand), probably because it didn't switch weapons in the first free hit.
Then again, I could have misread that part.