Energy Shield+Telekinesis+Ith=Confused
#1
I've been coming here for accurate information about D2 for a while since this is the best source along with the Basin. Anyway this is my first post so be gentle.

I wanted to test out the interactions of telekinesis, energy shield and vulpine equipment for obvious reasons. In case no one has checked it out energy shield is now more efficient than in 1.09d. Previously hit 63% absorb at lvl 20 (according to arreat summit), this is now 75% absorb at lvl 20. Max possible is 95% but I have no idea what skill level this is. Anyway since telekinesis can now make the amount of mana lost a reasonable number, a sorceress can theoretically have about 80% resists to fire, ice, lightning, physical, and magic with just a couple vulpine items (nightsmoke and howltusk should be plenty). Granted this will eat up 36-40 skill points.

OK so what I did. I downloaded the LOD-sorc (I'm not getting to level 45 with only level one charged bolt, lightning and chain lightning) and put 20 straight into energy shield. In some instances I also used lvl 18 telekinesis (this level was based on an erroneous assumption about the skill interactions and vulpine equipment). I took this character to act one hell and found the nearest enemy, either devil kin or zombie, and got smacked around while recording life loss and mana loss. Later in the experiment I threw in some vulpine items in the form of either a lightplate socketed with 2 iths, or an artisan's kite shield of the ages socketed with 3 iths, or both. The iths were acquired from normal Countess runs, so not third party.

Background information:
The formula for telekinesis effects on energy shield is:
mana damage = (32-telekenesis lvl)/16 * damage absorbed

Damage absorbed is listed as 75% at skill level 20
Damage absorbed can thus be calculated as = lost life *4 * .75

Test 1:
OK so first I wanted to verify that I understood the telekinesis synergy and it was properly implemented. The first sets of data where simply lvl 20 energy shield with or without level 18 telekinesis.

Without telekinesis (lvl 1) I took on average (all reports used 20 observations) 13.9 life dmg with 80.7 mana loss. Which was on par with calculated loss.
mana loss = (32-1)/16 * [(13.9 * 4) * .75] = 80.79

*note that since life loss is 25 percent actual damage can be calculated as life loss * 4

The same was true for level 18 telekinesis. I took on average 15.6 life dmg with 39.3 mana loss.
mana loss = (32-18)/16 * [(15.6 * 4) * .75] = 40.95

OK so I know this is working now.
Then I threw in the vulpine and everything went to hell.

Test 2:
This time I used lvl 1 telekinesis, level 20 energy shield and 75% vulpine from equipment above. I took on average 21 dmg and lost 42.55 mana. This does not fit in with how I understand vulpine to work. In this case vulpine effects are calculated before energy shield so you will receive total dmg * .75 back as mana (21 * 4 * .75) So my theoretical mana loss should be:
mana loss = {(32-1)/16 * [(21 * 4) * .75]} - (21 * 4 * .75) = 122.0625 - 63 = 59
59 is not 42.55, I'm losing LESS mana than I'm supposed to.

So then I do this with lvl 18 telekinesis. I take on average 20.6 dmg and lose no mana.
mana loss = {(32-18)/16 * [(20.6 * 4 * .75)]} - (20.6 * 4 * .75) = 54.075 - 61.8 = -7.725
Ok so this makes sense.

Then I drop down to 45% vulpine. Take on average 24 dmg and again lose NO mana.
mana loss = {(32-18)/16 * [(24 * 4 * .750]} - (24 * 4 * .45) = 63 - 43.2 = 19.8
This is clearly a problem. I didn't check to see how much this is refilling my mana ball but I will do that later and report back.

Finally I drop to 30% vulpine. Take on average 21.333 dmg and lose 11.167 mana.
mana loss = {(32-18)/16 * [(21.333 * 4 * .75]} - (21.333 * 4 * .3) = 56 - 25.6 = 30.4
Ok so again this is terribly wrong.

Test 3:
I figured there might be something wrong with vulpine effects so I took off my mana shield and just got whacked with 75% vupline (5 iths). I took on average 78.2 dmg and regenerated 175 mana. That is crazily wrong.
mana regen = 78.2 * .75 = 58.65
So the vulpine is working 3 times what it is supposed to be. Thus I am recieving 225% dmg to mana. I'm aware of the Tir bug so there might be something similar with ith runes. I have started testing with the 30% and 45% separately but haven't had time to finish this yet. I did back calculate my results from the 30% vulpine with lvl 18 telekinesis and the factor I got from this was 75% dmg to mana instead of 30% or 2.5 time as effective as it should have been. My character hadn't died prior to these experiments which was a factor in some of the tir bug reports. I have yet to check this with "natural" vulpine equipment like nightsmoke or howltusk but will do so once I own them (just found a nightsmoke will add this on later).


However, the problem is even with this new vulpine value plugged into the equations above, I'm still not getting the correct expected values. So now that I've wasted 10 minutes of your life, does anyone have a guess as to what might be going on, or what I might be calculating wrong.

-Thanks in advance

EDIT: added in a sentence of results.
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#2
Shaft.ed,Jul 30 2003, 09:18 PM Wrote:I wanted to test out the interactions of telekinesis, energy shield and vulpine equipment for obvious reasons.
[...]
OK so I know this is working now.
Then I threw in the vulpine and everything went to hell.
[...]
Test 3:
I figured there might be something wrong with vulpine effects so I took off my mana shield and just got whacked with 75% vupline (5 iths). I took on average 78.2 dmg and regenerated 175 mana. That is crazily wrong.
mana regen = 78.2 * .75 = 58.65
So the vulpine is working 3 times what it is supposed to be.
I suspect you've found another instance of an implementation feature/bug reported with +mana per kill items in v1.10 beta...

Maggot Lair thread on +mana per kill bug

It seems quite possible that the coder decided that certain +items (like crushing blow, +mana/kill, vulpine) should stack better/differently in v1.10. Reports so far suggest that this change is messed up (as, for example, poison stacking calculations were in a number of patches).

In other words, if you take off all your vulpine equipment and start a new game to test in, and in that game (never die and) never equipment more than one vulpine item at a time, you might find your results have "normalized".

Good Luck and welcome to the LL.
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#3
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't died in that particular game, but I was worried since I had recovered my corpse in that game but some testing I did showed this is not a factor.

I just did some work with a howl tusk and nightsmoke and I'm getting a similar effect as with the ith's.

This is all without any energy shield. Howl tusk and nightsmoke should be returning 85% dmg to mana however:

The first time I tried this my average life loss was 74.7 and mana gain was 125.4. That's off by a very clean factor of 2. Thus is gaining 170% instead of 85% so it appears that this is similar to the tir rune bug.

On a similar vein I tried dying and then repeating the experiment above, as this has been reported to augment the tir effect. And again it did. This time my average life loss was 80.83 and mana gain was 206.67. This is again a clean multiple, but this time it is three times as much as what should be expected. 255% instead of 85%.

I just wanted to verify that the work I have listed in the first post on this thread is correct since I had died in a previous game to kill my merc and then recovered my body in town. So I started a new game and recovered my corpse. The mana difference was as in the initial experiment. Average dmg 55.25 average mana gain 92.5. Again a factor of 170%.

Also note that in the first Howl Tusk and nightsmoke trial I had not died OR recovered my corpse in this game, so corpse recovery does not effect vulpine activity, it is the act of dying/restarting in town.

I'd like to do more experiments to see what the multiplication factor is between runes and items etc. And I obviously haven't tried this with just a nightsmoke to show a single vulpine item has no bugs. Unfortunately I have some work to do. Will report back later.
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#4
Quote "Test 2:
This time I used lvl 1 telekinesis, level 20 energy shield and 75% vulpine from equipment above. I took on average 21 dmg and lost 42.55 mana. This does not fit in with how I understand vulpine to work. In this case vulpine effects are calculated before energy shield so you will receive total dmg * .75 back as mana (21 * 4 * .75) So my theoretical mana loss should be:
mana loss = {(32-1)/16 * [(21 * 4) * .75]} - (21 * 4 * .75) = 122.0625 - 63 = 59
59 is not 42.55, I'm losing LESS mana than I'm supposed to. "

I haven't played in a while but... Doesn't the vulpine/damage to mana effect work base on damage 'taken' and not damage 'received'? So the last term in the equation above should be "-(21*.75)". Makes a big difference in build planning, as the usefulness of vulpine items declines as percentage absorbed by ES increases. Hope I'm wrong and your right as that could make for an interesting/overpowered sorc build. B)
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#5
Yeah that's exactly why I was doing these tests, but with the vulpine bugs I can't figure out what's going on. I've tried plugging in the altered vulpine percentages in various ways (including the one you described) without any luck. I wish I could do more testing but I'm really busy right now. However from what I've read energy shield should be the final effector when calculating mods to dmg like damage reduction, magic damage reduced by etc... I think this applies to vulpine.
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#6
In 1.09 it was based upon the damage taken, aka the amount of life actually lost. I'd be surprised if this was changed.

- Dagni
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#7
Two things.

It is not the 'tir' bug, I didn't use any tir runes when i discovered the bug. It affects all +mana/kill items. It is an enormous pain in the ass, either exploit, or gimp yourself. :(

Secondly, you keep saying you're trying 'with howltusk and nightsmoke' and getting whacky numbers. That's because you're using two items. It's not a rune bug, it's an effect bug. Remove the howltusk, and with only the nightsmoke equipped, start a new game to test it. Then add the howltusk. Then the shield. Then the ethed armor, then other vulpine stuff and watch the exponential growth.
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