Victory or Death

[Jester]

... so far, so good.

Bottoms up!

Jester

[Occhidiangela]

No, not the same. To call martyrdom stupid is to assume some world views are better than others. (For myself this is not an assumption, but as I offer no proofs here your usage is correct.)

My real problem here is calling suicide bombers 'martyrs'. A martyr should have an unyeilding devotion to ideals, but that only leads to death when compelled to choose between life and ideals. Rushing to death instead of their ultimate ideal sucks all the heroism out of their life. The same with hunger strikers and people who pour gasoline on themselves and light a match in order to prove a point. Suicidal people in general are just trying to attract attention to themselves, not accomplish anything practical. I am not impressed by such false martyrs.

As you said, Americans take risks but don't do guaranteed suicide missions just to hurt the enemy. There are instances of soldiers falling on grenades to save their buddies, and of risky and reckless attacks, but none with death guaranteed with no positive result. That is not in our "world view."

A martyr should what? All a martyr has to do is die and be associated with a cause. The folks who do the association, and keep the martyrs name and achievement alive, are the ones responsible for the martyr's status. I would not lump martyrs in with the general category of "suicidal people" because the martyr is often, not always, doing something that is FOR the cause. A "suicidal person" is more often simply taking the short road to worm food, typically with a negative motive.

A martyr is an interesting political and social animal. What is important is that he or she died for the cause, and sometimes, as in the case of Jesus for example, died in such a manner as to make for great drama. Martyrdom frequently takes on the elements of legend and folklore. Therefore, if you die in an attack against "the hated enemy du jour" and your death either was, or is sold as, for the cause, you too can be a martyr.

Let's take a look at a nice American martyr: Nathan Hale. School teacher, citizen soldier, (spy) trusted soldier of General Washington. He was caught, partly due to intelligent British security procedures and partly by luck. He was hanged as a spy. Somehow, word of how he died, wherein he is reported to have said "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" transported him from yet another casualty to martyr. He died for a cause, and his death, among hundreds of other deaths during the campaign for New York that Clinton and Cornwallis won for General Howe, left the realm of the mundane and achieved legendary status.

Consider a completely different case: General George Armstrong Custer. His wife Libby spent considerable time and energy promoting her dead husband's "virtues" and succeedined for some time to elevate him to martyr status. The debacle at the Little Big Horn was called, among other things, a massacre. (I suppose it was, although I find the term historically, militarily and tactically dubious, but that of course is what spin is all about.) In Hale's case, the events have stood up pretty well to historical scrutiny, whereas in Custer's case, a somewhat less attractive verdict appears to have been made, particularly with the forensic historical research carried out at the battlefield over the past two decades. Custers reputation for "more balls than brains" served him well in the Civil War, but too many people who knew him, and who served with him, knew that this "legend" had feet of clay.

Custer is to a certain extent, a reverse martyr. I recall a 70's article, or book, entitled "Custer died for your sins." It was written from a PoV sympathetic to the Plains Indian nations, such as the Sioux and Cheyenne.

In the light of those two examples, consider the "Martyrs for Islam." Consider also the various martyrs in Ireland in their struggle against the Brits. I don't think that the average Brit considers Bobby Sands, an infamous hunger striker, a martyr, but there is many a member of the IRA who does.

Martyrdom is a very subjective measure, in any case.