The Great Race; a proposal for "Khalim" awards

[Crystalion]

CelticHound wrote:

If the rushee gets Baal credit via exploit by someone else on the level getting credit, can't they just ignore the Ancients entirely?  That way, if you want to level later, you can wait until you are high enough that you get full exp from that quest.

That is correct. However Ruvanal and I are hopeful this will be fixed for release, without us spelling out in entirety how truly awful this exploit is (for example, in Hardcore with a trick I won't detail at this time).

Walkiry wrote:

Malus: 30:12 lvl. 8
Andy: 51:20 lvl. 10
Staff: 1:32:56 lvl 14
Amulet: 1:37:15 lvl 14
Canyon: 1:57:27 lvl 16
Duriel: 2:13:18 lvl 17
Jade Figurine: 2:17:44 lvl 17
Gibbdin: 2:39:41 lvl 19
Tome: 2:51:18 lvl 20
Khalim's guts: 2:52:36 lvl 20 (time when the last piece was obtained)
Khalim's Flail: 2:55:15 lvl 20
Mephisto's Soulstone: 3:00:05 lvl 20

and I promised to post, for comparative reference, sample assistive times, ala...

act 1: watch Andariel die
act 2: touch viper temple chest to lift darkness; use summoner portal; talk to Tyriel
act 3: watch Council die; watch Meph die
act 4: watch Diablo die
act 5: (non-exploit): be level 20 and watch ancients die then watch Baal die

so here's timings for phase one...

v1.10s, Windows XP pro, Athlon 2000, 512Meg DDR, Nvidia Ti4200 (i.e. a soso system by 2003 standards), running two users (three in Duriel segment) tcp/ip.

Timer started initially after game load when Rusher waypointed out of town. Rushee level 1 before and after rush.

• 03:00 Andarial dead, enter act 2
  <>
  
• 06:18 Viper temple chest touched, amulet picked up for fun, darkness "ended"
  <>
  
• 09:42 Summoner dead and Canyon waypoint acquired
  <>
  
• 11:33 New game started by "Duriel" character and Rusher and Rushee joined and ready to go
  <>
  
• 15:02 Duriel dead; Tyriel talked to etc etc.... in Kurast docks.
  <>
  
• 16:00 new game hosted by Rushee, and joined... ready to go
  <>
  
• 17:57 Council dead and rushee picks up Horadric Cube
  <>
  
• 19:03 Meph dead, rushee in act 4
  <>
  
• 25:59 Diablo dead, rushee in act 5... end of phase one; awaiting phase 2 = rushee clvl => 20<>
  [st]In other words, since I don't have two people or two computers, 26 minutes is an *inefficient* run time to rush a char to act 5, in prep for either clvl20 ancients, or clvl1 ancients exploit. I could, with two side by side computers and two accounts (I have two CD keys, of course) probably get this down to an average of twenty minutes a rush. Someone with eight side by side PCs could probably do 7 rushees in half an hour.
  
  So, since my rushee was a Sorc, I'll probably save her and try various techniques to time getting her Great Race to level 20, ala Walkiry and my posts. Once that's done, I'll do yet another rush (but timed for your reading pleasure) to give you an idea of how fast an act 5 clvl 20 can harvest their nm Hellforge reward.
  
  Edit: fyi, my "rusher" is a level 71 assassin who was created and played untwinked, starting in beta1 (and then naked in beta s but recovered quickly). At present, for these timings, I have "cheated" and given her an amulet of 25 charges of teleport which I used at most half a dozen times in the course of the timings reported above.
  
  Edit: I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a guess: if phase 1 takes less than half an hour I bet phase 3 + 1 combined with be less than an hour. Based on Walkiry's notwink phase 2 times I bet a twink (already phase 1 rushed) can level up to 20 in under 2 hours. So my prediction would be (non-exploit) that a single assisted rushee from creation to NM Hellforge reward can be done in under 3 (man) hours (assuming you have two accounts and two side by side computers)... that's a uniform distribution of pick one random rune: r12 to r22, aka Sol to Um, for 3 man hours work. Very reasonable, imho (though multiplying that by 7 ala exploit in roughly the same time isn't), and, afaik, a better bet for the near Um runes than Countess runs.
  
  Edit: another reasonable but indirect way to "fix" the exploit worry and also make the rushing less attractive: require clvl 14+20*(diff-1) for Hellforge (aka 14, 34, 54 for normal, nm, hell) or some such.

[Ferengi]

Back around Xmas, when I was last active, I could put a new char in Hell Cows in an hour. The second computer doesn't need to be anything special, since the rushed char generally stands still in a specific spot during the rush. I used a laptop tweaked to minmize the processor load. I had 4 chars to rush, a sorc(1 of 3) of course, my big killer Fury PoleDruid, a legit WF MS zon with Atmas tweaked for pure damage, a rarely used Schaferdin, 3 staff mules and so much maze experience that I found stairways fast. There were fewer key points to hit, but one thing that is still overlooked is that the rushee does NOT have to be in Duriel's Chamber until after Duriel death and before anyone gets near the Angel. I could easily take parties of 4. To just get to NM Hellforge,it would be 20 minutes, mostly in overhead. Hmm, actually with the extras in Act2 (twice) add 10, say 6 for Council (twice), overhead, 40 minutes then. But I would need to experiment for a safe spot for rushee in NM Council. I used to do then for lvling when I got tired of Cow Wars, but otherwise I never rushed passed them.

I don't yet understand the new limitations imposed to prevent rushing, but the comments in this thread seem to indicate that the rushee needs to be around the Ancients. Unless Blizz puts a clvl limit on passing thru any portal to Baal, I sure people will get around the Ancients easily (i.e. I predict 1 hour before this limitation is broken and HOWTO knowledge spreading). In 1.09, I know that party members would not get Diablo credit when other party members succeeded, so it sounds like this has gotten broken.

If the clvl 20 limit actually holds, it is not a big deal. Sometimes, rather than going to Hell Cows, I'd take the rushee to Act3 at clvl 3 (usually was 2-3 after a rush). A Cold Wolf was all I needed, and I'd get a new one every clvl. At clvl 8, the Act2 sewers were sweet. I'd skip the Arcane and head straight for the Canyon whenever I thought the merc could handle it.

So I'd say a clvl 20 NM Hellforge was a 2 hour effort (and I bet that number can come down,as the Imbue number came down from first guesses). Once I had the Zon lvled enough, I tended to rely on her to kill anything the sorc didn't kill in a few casts -- which made the sorc primarily a Teleport source for the Zon (I never got a Teleport ammy , I watched for months). I liked to use the Druid against the D's in NM-Hell, but the Zon could do that (another trick is you can start firing an attack the moment you enter the hole--i.e. while the graphics load at Duriel). With a Runeword for teleport and rune cubing, much of the overhead can be discarded.

You can bootstrap this whole thing, feed Imbuers into NM Hellforge and eventually into Hell (with 2 more imbues and pick up Anya rewards). With Runeword power and nice rares, you will pass up the early ladder leaders [probably skill based]. You don't even need a round the clock team, you just need a big enough team. Gee I see all sorts of neat tricks in planning (getting better at detailed planning is why I play Diablo), a bummer that I need to work.

</mouth> I only stopped in for a moment!

[Walkiry]

Edit: I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a guess: if phase 1 takes less than half an hour I bet phase 3 + 1 combined with be less than an hour. Based on Walkiry's notwink phase 2 times I bet a twink (already phase 1 rushed) can level up to 20 in under 2 hours.

I'm almost sure that's indeed the case. I skipped optional areas in Act I (among them the Den of Evil, although I had to come back later and do it since I forgot to save a point to get telekinesis + teleport at level 18: another 3 minutes lost), the sewers, most of the lost city (including the oh so exp-tasty ancient tunnels), the palace and the whole canyon (going straight to the true tomb). Clearing these areas so that you don't push the clvl vs. mlvl difference will make the xp points roll in at a much faster rate.

I'll give it a try after I get to the ancients with my current sorcie, knowing the character a bit better now. My previous blaze sorceress is a hardcore character in realms, so I don't play her as risky as this one (still keeps me on my toes though :lol:).

[CelticHound]

That is correct. However Ruvanal and I are hopeful this will be fixed for release, without us spelling out in entirety how truly awful this exploit is (for example, in Hardcore with a trick I won't detail at this time).

Interesting. The thing I've seen done is to have one "sacrificial" character and have everyone else stay in town.

I'll be waiting with bated breath for the time you choose to detail this trick of yours.

BTW, is that trick the "Ruvanal sleaze" you keep mentioning so suggestively?

Edit: another reasonable but indirect way to "fix" the exploit worry and also make the rushing less attractive: require clvl 14+20*(diff-1) for Hellforge (aka 14, 34, 54 for normal, nm, hell) or some such.

Edit: In principle, I'm against any kind of level requirements for advancing through the game. Since the hellforge quest isn't required, I suppose it isn't as awful as it could be, but it still grates on my senses. It really bugs me that Ancients has a level requirement now that they've limited the reward to one level. It puts a hard limit on characters like Sirian's Spedara - "you may pass at this level but no earlier".

-- CH

[Walkiry]

Assault to Diablo's fortress tomorrow, I'm too tired today :lol:

There will be no assault to Diablo's fortress. It only took me 11 mintes to get there and punch the first seal, but no cigar.

And I'm severely pissed off at having to throw away over 3 hours of work, but facts are facts: I cannot surpass the regeneration rate of the superuniques in the Chaos Sanctuary.

Static field will do nicely to bring them down to very low life, but with poison potions lasting for what, 0.1 seconds on them and blaze not being very useful (you know, with Oblivion Knights not following you, the Vizier being immune to fire) it's up to having around 200 poison pots (no, you cannot stop to go up and "recharge them" or by the time you come back they'll be back to half their health), a TON of life and mana pots (since you'll have to be in front of them eating attacks while hitting them with a wheenie level 8 charged bolt) and stacks of time to burn.

I'm sure I could clear up the sanctuary with patience, but having to spend one hour to kill three monsters while getting to that point took 3 hours total is not very realistic.

This is Normal difficulty. Bleargh I say.

Back to "Rush up to level 20 and see how fast you can do it" it is.

[Crystalion]

It would take too long--verbose as I am--to reply properly to Ferengi and CelticHound... so I won't (sorry). Perhaps, if v1.10 is a lot different from v1.10s, I'll have the time to write up all the nitty gritty rushing details some day (both of you are very close, but evidently slightly off on some particulars). Reading Ferengi's posts here and there along with his note he hasn't played since Xmas causes me to remember just how much has changed in the game (i.e. many tricks you detail in various threads need to be adjusted or just plain no longer work as of v1.10s).

Details, details, details. The devil is in the details and they are changing. For example, it was just noted in the Maggot Lair (v1.10 bugs thread) that many attacks now seem to be handled more like regular attacks. I had been under the impression that Corpse Explosion would just hit, but I can see this isn't true (v1.10s--I don't know how far back) when I test my level 6 Necro with CE on piles of corpses (helpfully supplied by a Rusher) vs. Shenk & co. I would love to know the particulars there. So much testing to do, so little time. Poor Isolde, what a mess this has all been to clean up, eh?

And I'm severely pissed off at having to throw away over 3 hours of work, but facts are facts: I cannot surpass the regeneration rate of the superuniques in the Chaos Sanctuary.

Er, um, ah, how do I say this gently?... pmh. PMH. ***PMH***, ***PMH***!!!! That is, PMH is a *low level* affix appearing on weapons sold in the act 1 Rogue encampment shops as early as clvl 5 (4?). Some shop in some act, or some gamble is going to offer you a throwing weapon with PMH (of Vileness). Once you tag 'em, they're blaze toast, except for...

the Vizier being immune to fire

Ouchie. Hadn't thought of that problem with your build. Of course, once it's just you and him and he's PMHed and staticed down to near nothing, it shouldn't be a problem, even so.

This is Normal difficulty. Bleargh I say.

Well, there, in a nutshell, you have the v1.10 hell difficulty "requirement" for players to use OW/Poison/PMH (unless, by some miracle, the players can actually output megadamage and ignore regen). I like this, myself, as I see it as an additional challenge. But for most player's there should perhaps be an in-game hot-tip pop-up: "We see you're having trouble killing monsters.. do you know about OW/Poison/PMH? Here's a link to the AB and LL forums for more info. Have a nice day."

edit: of course, given the way various things work/don't work vs. bosses/champs/super-uniques/end-act-bosses any desired effect needs actual testing for any given version of D2--in other words, I don't know that PMH works on SUs v1.10s, I'm just guessing it does. For example another thread just pointed out to be that PMH didn't seem applied by javazon Lightning Bolt (although I remember many effects I tested, v1.10beta1, are applied).

[Ruvanal]

Interesting.&nbsp; The thing I've seen done is to have one "sacrificial" character and have everyone else stay in town.

I'll be waiting with bated breath for the time you choose to detail this trick of yours.

BTW, is that trick the "Ruvanal sleaze" you keep mentioning so suggestively?

-- CH

I never listed what the trick was that I used. I do know that with the method that i used it is not necessary to have any "sacrificial" characters in the manner that you are referring to. In fact if you did loose any characters in the process in a hardcore game, you would have to consider the whole 'rush' screwed at that point.

[Walkiry]

Er, um, ah, how do I say this gently?... pmh. PMH. ***PMH***, ***PMH***!!!! That is, PMH is a *low level* affix appearing on weapons sold in the act 1 Rogue encampment shops as early as clvl 5 (4?). Some shop in some act, or some gamble is going to offer you a throwing weapon with PMH (of Vileness). Once you tag 'em, they're blaze toast

I though PMH didn't work with superuniques? In any case, I do not like having this kind of thing in Normal, but I guess that's just me. I might go shopping and check for the time with such an item from the start of Act 4 on.

On a related note, 2:36:15 for clvl 20 with the (untwinked, unassisted players 1) Blaze Sorcie. I'm back to the drawing board now, that ought to be improved somehow (and given that rushing forward is no longer the goal, blaze might not be the best). I'll take a closer look at the mlvl vs. clvl distribution.

[Crystalion]

Interesting.  The thing I've seen done is to have one "sacrificial" character and have everyone else stay in town.

BTW, is that trick the "Ruvanal sleaze" you keep mentioning so suggestively?

-- CH

I never listed what the trick was that I used. I do know that with the method that i used it is not necessary to have any "sacrificial" characters in the manner that you are referring to. In fact if you did loose any characters in the process in a hardcore game, you would have to consider the whole 'rush' screwed at that point.

Well, CH is referring to Hardcore, and to my allusion that your carry-along sleaze works just fine there, with an additional trick. So I have to contradict you (given your probable misunderstanding of this) to say that yes, dead characters "on site" allow carry-alongs (v1.10s tcp/ip at least), even (especially!) if they are "sacrificial" characters in Hardcore. Since rushing is so effective, one easily creates a wave of never-at-risk carry-alongs in Hardcore, climbing, so to speak, over the dead bodies of their level one sacrificers. Naturally, if you can find a "safe spot" you don't need a sacrifice. But the en masse nature of the carry-along technique means that sacrifices are a fairly small toll tax, and may be more practical than "safe" techniques (which, admittedly, are quite varied in and of themselves).

From my point of view, of course, as a single person running multiple characters on one PC, having to go through a long "switch user" process, I find "on site" death to be much more expedient than safe spots, in most cases. Some situations, of course, like Duriel, don't need an "on site" at all, as you can just talk to Tyriel (note to Ferengi: my list of "watch X die" did not include "watch Duriel die", so yes, many of us are aware of that sleaze. At present few people are probably aware that the new v1.10 interlock on the Summoner is flawed. Details, details).

Ironically some of the "hardest" to finesse quest interlocks are pretty innocuous, like having to break the third prison door or touch the viper temple chest in person (but, of course, Town Portal by the rusher after everything is safe handles those rather simply). Some interlocks can be bypassed in ways that are just silly, as with the earlier observation that a Sorc that hasn't ever given a Malus to Charsi is a good drone to fetch and then hand a Malus to (a) lowbie(s).

[Crystalion]

I though PMH didn't work with superuniques? In any case, I do not like having this kind of thing in Normal, but I guess that's just me. I might go shopping and check for the time with such an item from the start of Act 4 on.

Tested v1.10s SP vs De Seis: yes, PMH works. I rather think you'll find them easiest to buy in act 1 (alvl 9 after all) but YMMV.

I will have to post in another thread ("hidden features") about some anomalies in monster regen I noticed in doing this test, however. Odd stuff.

[Walkiry]

On a related note, 2:36:15 for clvl 20 with the (untwinked, unassisted players 1) Blaze Sorcie.

And 2:22:38 with the thorns paladin. The advantage of this one was actually being able to properly use a mercenary (a Combat one in this case, good for punching bags), whereas the blazie can't keep one of these alive for long. I was also lucky with the drops, plenty of chipped skulls and useful rares. I was expecting a faster time though

Biggest PITA is the last couple of levels (18 upwards), painfully slow, specially level 20.

Next one should be the assassin, not sure if a trapper or a regular hack-n-slash one would be better, we'll see.

The target time seems to be the 2 hour barrier. Of course, players n would make this obsolete (I might take the blazer to plazers 8 for comparison purposes).

[Crystalion]

And 2:22:38 with the thorns paladin. The advantage of this one was actually being able to properly use a mercenary (a Combat one in this case, good for punching bags), whereas the blazie can't keep one of these alive for long. I was also lucky with the drops, plenty of chipped skulls and useful rares. I was expecting a faster time though

Biggest PITA is the last couple of levels (18 upwards), painfully slow, specially level 20.

You might consider this recipe to cube a decent act 2 merc weapon from the Revenge of the Savage Bardiche thread:

Any staff (normal act 1 Akara will commonly sell you a plain staff cheap)
Any kris (normal act 2 Fara sells will commonly see you a plain kris cheap)
Any belt (normal act 1 Charsi will commonly sell you a plain sash cheap)
Any diamond (I used a diamond chip)

Unfortunately you'll get something that is so good it will have at least clvl 19 as a req, which only makes the suggestion plausible as you said 18 to 20 was a PITA. (edit: and I mention it because there is another race, to 25, that is relevant, then, of course, the race to 40).

The power of emerald (type) gems in bows should not be discounted. You can get a 3 socket bow from Charsi or Gheed pretty readily, so if you had some chipped or flawed emeralds drop early you could get just obscene damage from an act 1 hire (cubing up, if you're really lucky).

Next one should be the assassin, not sure if a trapper or a regular hack-n-slash one would be better

A pure Dragon Talon kick artist is awesome, if you put on Greaves as soon as possible. Since you are solo'ing, don't neglect a point in CoS. As for traps, early on the Blade Sentry skill is pretty amazing, if you put a really high damage weapon on your switch to cast them (elemental damages included, but not effects). Later the Blade Fury skill is a one point wonder (effects included).

Still, as much as I love my Assassin, I have to believe both the blaze and thorns builds are going to level faster. Aside from the Necro (CE and army) that I already mentioned, I'd think a Multishot bowazon makes sense (as mana is now shop buyable again).

[Walkiry]

Unfortunately you'll get something that is so good it will have at least clvl 19 as a req, which only makes the suggestion plausible as you said 18 to 20 was a PITA.

Actually I landed a 3 socket brandistok early in the run and had accumulated a few nice gems, and the merc was doing some impressive killing indeed. I gave him a mail I found, but soon removed it as I realized he was more effective with thorns and feeding him pots as a complement of the regular attack.

The problem with those levels is not only that the leveling speed goes down, is that the corresponding areas are not exactly the best ones to level. The arcane sanctuary is not going to give a big oomph with thorns: ghosts seemed unaffected by it, or at least not as much as they should, goatmen are far too slow attacking and by the time they landed hits I have zealed them silly, and vampires are mostly ranged. And the canyon, although potentially good, didn't give me good monster combos (spear cats on all of them, maggots on half, cats + scarabs as well).

That's why I though the assassin might hold her own, since she'll be faster hunting down the baddies and putting a smackdown on them one by one. I'll see it tomorrow.

An act I rogue? I didn't consider it so far because blazie can't really keep a merc, and the thorns paladin works best with a melee sidekick, but it might be worth for the assassin. I'll definitely take a look.

And before I go to bed, 1:37:40 for the untwinked unassisted players 8 blazing sorceress for the 1 -> 20 leveling. I was level 16 by the time I reached Andy. Level rushing in big party games is going to be highly recommended.

[Ruvanal]

Well, CH is referring to Hardcore, and to my allusion that your carry-along sleaze works just fine there, with an additional trick. So I have to contradict you (given your probable misunderstanding of this)....

I did not misunderstand. No extra 'trick' is required.

... to say that yes, dead characters "on site" allow carry-alongs (v1.10s tcp/ip at least), even (especially!) if they are "sacrificial" characters in Hardcore.

I am fully aware of the exploit of a dead player also being able to get quest credits if still in close enough proximity.

Since rushing is so effective, one easily creates a wave of never-at-risk carry-alongs in Hardcore, climbing, so to speak, over the dead bodies of their level one sacrificers.

An unnecessary overhead even if you feel it is small. Why 'sacrifice' one or two characters per difficulty when you need to sacrifice none. With what I did, a sacrifice would gain zero speed increase and in hardcore just be a waste of even having started the character in the first place.

Since rushing is so effective, one easily creates a wave of never-at-risk carry-alongs in Hardcore, climbing, so to speak, over the dead bodies of their level one sacrificers. Naturally, if you can find a "safe spot" you don't need a sacrifice. But the en masse nature of the carry-along technique means that sacrifices are a fairly small toll tax, and may be more practical than "safe" techniques (which, admittedly, are quite varied in and of themselves).

I used no "safe spots" as part of the method as they are unneccessary and in this case somewhat counter productive to getting the job done.

From my point of view, of course, as a single person running multiple characters on one PC, having to go through a long "switch user" process, I find "on site" death to be much more expedient than safe spots, in most cases.

I guess I just use a better setup or technique when doing something like this on the realms considering the CD-keys are located on computers in seperate rooms. I do not have that bad of "switch user process" if I do it right (~0.5sec on bad switch of users with ~25-30 feet of distance between the computers).

Some interlocks can be bypassed in ways that are just silly, as with the earlier observation that a Sorc that hasn't ever given a Malus to Charsi is a good drone to fetch and then hand a Malus to (a) lowbie(s).

Why not just have the sorceress just kill all the monsters in the area and let the lowbies use her portal to come and fetch the malus from its stand? Seems just as easy and does not require making sure that particular quest is kept in the state before the Malus is handed to Charsi.

[Crystalion]

I did not misunderstand.  No extra 'trick' is required.

Ah, then I will have to clarify my objection to your technique, when I was trying to be oblique (since you were somewhat oblique in your original posts), in case I'm misunderstanding your technique.

I used no "safe spots" as part of the method as they are unneccessary and in this case somewhat counter productive to getting the job done.

I do not have that bad of "switch user process" if I do it right (~0.5sec on bad switch of users with ~25-30 feet of distance between the computers).

Just out of curiousity, are you using keyboard/mouse/display switch, or can you actually cross 25 feet of space in half a second (must be a NASA G-force test chair)? My switch times were much better for v1.09, as I tweaked the dll and ran two windows on one desktop (I also tweaked the minimize, so I could keep both windows up and displaying--or not, as I wished). My XP times, while not requiring any program tweak, are rather slow (over 5 seconds I think).

Why not just have the sorceress just kill all the monsters in the area and let the lowbies use her portal to come and fetch the malus from its stand?

Ah, that's an easy one, as per Ferengi's earlier snipet:

Your clvl 30+ sorc with teleport and FO didn't imbue because she didn't turn in the Malus. She gives it to the Imbuee, who needs to get the elite item anyway. The sorc FOs the Smith et al and picks up the Malus and can do that forever, and really is an "Imbue Mule" similar to the Act2 staff game creator.

To wit either the Sorc or the imbuee can start the game in which the elite item *and* the Malus are handed over, and there isn't ever any coordination issue. The Sorc is probably going to save *her* imbue until she is really high level anyway, so why not have her just never give Charsi a Malus in the first place, to get this (admittedly) small convenience?

Okay, back to the point of whether dying is a "convenience" or not. In my case, because my switching is awkward, I wouldn't risk the set up effort (game creation overhead etc.) by potential failure in timing of an operation such as the following, using normal as an example: 1) static/injure act boss to virtual death; 2) poison or OW act boss and/or 3) bring in rushee via TP (clvl 20+ in the Baal case) to be present (or to cause) for act boss death. I'm not discussing carry-alongs in town, of course. I understand that the rushee in this circumstance can have enough HPs to survive any pre-death throe AoE the boss might tag them with and as such need have no safe spot. My rushees, since I'm NOT exploiting the carry-along sleaze, are typically only level 1, have no skills, no HPs, and can't throw a poison potion to save their life (clvl req 6). Obviously this is by choice, as I could level up the rushee np.

Since I don't, however, with awkward switching, I then neither like the case where the rushee doesn't get there in time, nor do I like the coup de grace case (where rushee delivers the final blow via poison potion or other autohit) even if the rusher is still there, distracting the boss. Certainly the rushee, if the boss is on the edge of death, could show up, toss a poison potion, or Holy Shock pulse, or Thunderstorm (or whatever, if they are high enough clvl), and immediately step back through the portal. This is pretty good, as long as the rushee has enough resist/HPs to withstand one poorly timed AoE catching him.

But, for me, when *not* in hardcore, I completely remove any issue of timing, need for skills, need for HPs or need for thought by simply walking the rushee to where I know I'm going to drop the boss (switch; walk; switch back; kill; switch back; escape; complete quest dialogs; go to next step/act; switch; rusher proceeds) I do a lot of switching per quest, and my overhead is high, so I naturally prefer mindlessness for speed and accuracy. If you realize how huge my overheads are, I think you'll appreciate that 26 minutes to act 5 is a product of mindless speed.

Still, if I were set up to switch trivially, as I was in v1.09 and before, I'd have no reason to need to die or for a safe spot. This would avoid a HC tax as well. Although I think it is worth considering the possibility that the +6/7 player carry-along sleaze makes sacrificing potentially even five characters per difficulty (Andy, Meph, Diablo, Ancients(20), Baal)--like a multi-stage rocket--not an insurmountable cost (for example, imagine the anti-rush code tightened up in somehow, to make this way the only trick available).

If we think about this for "friends" who can work together (for just the one rushee case) then I think my way involves less uncertainty or coordination (non-Hardcore that is). Admittedly nearly but not quite killing an act boss doesn't seem like that hard of a skill to master and, of course, some of the coup de grace methods are pretty auto-magic, if which class you rush can be selected at will (which, of course, is definitely true for the carry-alongs sleaze).

I certainly don't think anything Walkiry is doing deserves to be nerfed, and I don't want to see the Hellforge rewards nerfed (since I'd like to see players at least have the possibility of seeing decent runewords without endless play). But I really want to see Baal have a 20*diff clvl req, and possibly a (reasonable) clvl req that is higher than that for Hellforges, to reduce the carry-along sleaze to a minor efficiency instead of an economy breaker.

Edit: Another possibility would be to have them change the code so that carry-alongs don't work. This isn't fair to players in a legit attempt party who die (the main rationale for carry-along in the first place I believe) so you could add to the stay-around-without-escape-at-death technique a new bit of code granting credit if they have a corpse in situ (thus you wouldn't have to document any of the changes in order to get players to not hork themselves by pressing escape). With these code changes, since a sub clvl 20 char can't get to Baal, they can't get credit either by escape screen or by corpse, but a 20+ char that made the (shared) attempt but died, will get credit if any party member succeeds (unless they come back, loot their corpse, and return to town, while the party then kills Baal--I don't see this as a problem case, as the game already has this problem, potentially, if no quest-enabled party member is in situ).

There. Now that I'm less obscure, and finally understood that you were using some better than safespot technique (safespots are hassles--I like my suicide method better, unless the safe spots are no-brainers, like Andarial's area), am I on the same wavelength? Or did you discover some awful D1esque player attribution "slot" oddity, like have the rusher cause open wounds and then leave the game, which then decides to award the kill to a remaining (in game) party member? I was assuming that if you had found something abnormal like that, you'd just report the particulars as a bug, and not worry about it, so I guessed that you were using safe spots or timing (or, as I now believe, timing insensitive automagic kills, like Holy Shock).

[Crystalion]

nearly but not quite killing

This reminds me that I don't think I ever got around to sharing one of the more amusing actively assisted twink scenarios...

In normal, if you've dealt with regen (either though the quirks thereof or by PMH), then you can static field monsters "nearly" to death quite easily and let a xp rushee harvest them with some otherwise soso AoE (area of effect) skill, like Holy Fire (eeewww, ick).

One rather sick thought is a game with a rushee accompanied by a Sorc with a bunch of Paly xp "meat tenderizers" that the rushee rotates through (Sorc accepts next Paly invite, invites rushee, takes portal, statics, rushee accepts, takes portal, leaves group, toasts masses of tenderized monsters... goes to join the Sorc at the next ready Paly's area).

The Paly would have a Passion weapon (+10 blind), Hwain's belt (PMH) and a crummy shield (low smite base damage). The Paly gathers and works a crowd, touching everything with weenie smite to PMH (easy to see, since the touched critters with PMH have the blindness ball over their heads) and tells the Sorc when the meat is prepped for Static (to nearly no HPs--Static is an auto-skill in this regard).

Since the blinds, in normal (where static works) last ~45 seconds, the crowd will still be just standing around when the rushee shows up to slaughter them in an instant.

The purpose of having multiple Paly's, of course, is to get realm players N and rushee time efficiency (certainly NOT rusher time efficiency, I know). Of course, if you're level 20+ or sleazed past Baal, you can just start endless cow games instead (one of the Paly's jobs would be to kill outright anything that doesn't blind, like bosses).

If this seems like an absurd amount of effort/coordination for a group to agree to, consider the case that they are power leveling a new Sorc to level 25 (the point at which hanger-on xp leeching works well) to get started on an uber-Enchantress for the group. (I know, I know, other non-skill point requiring twinks work pretty well. Still, can you imagine the visual here? Hilarious)

The concept isn't much use past normal or to use team effort to boost a character up the ladder. For ladder boost you probably want a team supporting a (non-grouped) Necro, who grabs all the xp by virtue of CE. Another reason why CE shouldn't scale with Players X.

[whyBish]

Another tactic I haven't seen listed yet, and used by many is to have multiple rusher chars prep the different acts, usually:
1) 1 - sorc with teleport, cat 2 wp to find andy
2) 1 - sorc with teleport, : find summoner to know correct tomb (... or BNetters using maphack :( )
4) Zon clears CS

3) Sorc from 1 preps meph when done with Andy (does not take long)

...
Not sure how this works out in 1.10, or what extra chars would be useful for the new restrictions.

...
For rushing a char to 20:
1 sorc with some static and a pimped up enchant... "Why yes mr necro, your 3 skellies can have 1k fire damage each"... sorc doesn't need to be in the party
and/or
pimped up warcry barb donating 8(?) mins or so of BC/BO/Shout, also not required in the party.

[Ferengi]

Reading thru the various posts, I'm reminded of many things. The technique of "Dying to get the Hell" where the party members wear down the boss in question in between their deaths. I remember seeing it a lot in 1.05 or so against Diablo. The group merely wants to get to Cow games. I'd expect that technique to come back.

This is a point that rushing Imbue mules and clvl 20s need to remember. The 2 (or is it 3) day requirement to play for 2 hours.

I had a "level 9" dueler, so I'd say check into Sacrifice. Taking 30% of an clvl 16 barbs life is serious damage.

So, I also mention my best, i.e. easiest in Normal, char to consider. The Throwing Barb, the only one I started from scratch worth mentioning. Throwing weapons work well against Andy, Meph, Diablo if you can handle the fire waves, and everything for quests in Act5 (can't remember Duriel). It's recommended to use throwing axes for barbs, but I liked the longer ranged javelins. Never twinked this guy until clvl 40+ (too much fun to play)....hmm I must have twinked for mana leech, but you can drink pots now [and that is the one change I object to, but then my rules are that needing to drink 2+ pots is bad]. Dunno how this will work now since Masteries are changed, probably just throw more javs. You get Barb HP, Barb AR, Barb Warcries, ranged attack, Leap! and Double Throw at 1 mana. If I wasn't at the Air Races this weekend, I'd work this up.

Watch X die. Hmm, given your computer switching story this is not merely watching the death animation (i.e. moving close at death) but includes "Watch X move". I'll figure it out sometime (i.e. the first time I really need it)...my 1 hour comment is for the news to leak out, not to figure it out BTW. My current guess is that the rusher is next to the rushee and lures the boss close for a one-hit kill (maybe he'll reply to that methinks :P )

Walkiry, if you haven't read Sirians Fire Skills, do so. If you pick up wands and scepters, keeping mercs is no problem. Just buy whatever kind you need to help, be very sure that the merc lvl is just one less than yours. Ice Blast is often overlooked BTW. Try Players2, you can always get that on the realms. For clvl 18+, Act3 jungle with an Ice Wolf is cake. If the Canyon is not good XP, try all the tombs. I think I'm alittle puzzled about your goal, you need to balance scarcity of monster, exp per monster and killing speed. If I kill a lower monster than gives 1/2 exp 3 times faster.... Once there was a rumor of a spreadsheet that someone had that supposedly factored all three to predict best areas.

[Walkiry]

Walkiry, if you haven't read Sirians Fire Skills, do so.&nbsp; If you pick up wands and scepters, keeping mercs is no problem.&nbsp; Just buy whatever kind you need to help, be very sure that the merc lvl is just one less than yours.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ice Blast is often overlooked BTW.&nbsp; Try Players2, you can always get that on the realms.&nbsp; For clvl 18+, Act3 jungle with an Ice Wolf is cake.&nbsp; If the Canyon is not good XP,&nbsp; try all the tombs.&nbsp; I think I'm alittle puzzled about your goal, you need to balance scarcity of monster, exp per monster and killing speed.&nbsp; If I kill a lower monster than gives 1/2 exp 3 times faster....&nbsp; Once there was a rumor of a spreadsheet that someone had that supposedly factored all three to predict best areas.

Well, the first goal was to go through the game up to the ancients as fast as possible (leveling to 20 in the meantime), but then I hit a wall and decided to just do leveling to 20 ASAP in the untwinked, one player from start to end, way. I have read Sirian's pages extensively :)

The biggest problem is actually travelling distance. I spend lots of time going between groups of enemies when killing them is almost trivial. I might get the stopwatch and calculate how long I spend actually travelling and how long killing with the thorns paladin (with the blazer is kind of hard to distinguish ;) ). The tombs have the problem of resurrecting monsters that don't give any exp whatsoever, I'd peep in a couple of tombs to see if there were suitable monsters, and simply retreat if hordes of skeletons were at sight.

Blazie has the problem of rolling monsters that don't chase you, and where monsters do chase you (the arcane sanctuary) the map is not very blaze-friendly.

Finally, going up to act 3 for leveling from 18 on is probably not an option, since it involves going through Duriel. Easy for Blazie, not so for everyone else at such low level.

In the meantime though, I took the assassin out for a walk. Claw mastery to 6, Burst of Speed up 3 levels then pots and at 12, Wake of Fire. As usual, untwinked and unassisted players 1, 2:23:20 (I might be getting better :lol:). Wake of Fire, being "Fire&Forget", is absolutely amazing for speed leveling. I might give the Charged Senty a try too, although the fire one is probably better at killing scarabs (which give decent experience). It does require far too frequent trips to town to restock pots.

I have to find a better solution for the Jail -> Andy part. Much time is lost there going through twisty mazes with little experience coming in. It might be worth it lingering a bit in the upper levels until level 12 (which includes restarting a couple of times at least). By the way, I don't stop the timer when I restart, it keeps ticking while I go through the menu and restar the game and so on. More realistic times that way.

[Walkiry]

In the meantime though, I took the assassin out for a walk. Claw mastery to 6, Burst of Speed up 3 levels then pots and at 12, Wake of Fire. As usual, untwinked and unassisted players 1, 2:23:20 (I might be getting better :lol:). Wake of Fire, being "Fire&Forget", is absolutely amazing for speed leveling. I might give the Charged Senty a try too, although the fire one is probably better at killing scarabs (which give decent experience). It does require far too frequent trips to town to restock pots.

Charged Bolt Sentry isn't much better, 2:25:48 was my time. It does have the advantage of having Shock Web as a sinergy, as SW is kind of useful getting you to level 12.

Seems like the 2 hour barrier is not going to be so easy to break. At least for me :lol: