08-30-2005, 09:17 AM
... split in two since the forum can't handle too many quotes in one post!
That is cool, although I have never so far seen anything close to it.
Of course. That is what I am looking for. I agree with most other things you wrote (that I did not quote) as well. But so what? Why implement the same system everyone else is using? Why not do something interesting and much more fun? Perhaps it is just me it would be much more fun and interesting to. Of course people would learn to counter different tactics from monsters, but that is when it turns more into a game of skill, than one of level and equipment. Now, you learn a primary overall strategy and stick to it with variations because you know before how most monsters behave.
Exactly!!! After all, isn't that what players often do? Of course one need to adjust the whole game, characters and so on. But, so what? Then you might not have to give a monster tons of HP and super damage just to make it challenging. Then players are not as tied into "healer", "damager", "tank" and so on either. The role might vary with encounter much more and so on.
Yes, that is one of my other major "problem" with this type of game. Why do monsters have to have exact spawn points? Why not randomize it? If for no other reason to get around camping (which I understand is a bigger problem in other games than WoW though, right?). Why not randomize herbs and such more too. One can still have it as "randomize adjacent to a tree trunk" for one type and so on. No, instead they make it more "random" by having 3 or 4 (or perhaps a few more) possible places to pick from. It is still not random though.
Then you have a harder situation, so what?
So? The game is not completely predictable and is sometimes harder, sometimes easier. What is the problem? Still, it doesn't necessarily have to apply to special instances and such as the one you mention. But the VERY same default spawn places exists out in the open in random areas were there is just monsters wandering around, were it doesn't matter if you get two of them too close. Even in smaller caves and such, were you typically should slay some boss in there (there are many of those right from the newbie area), they still have the boss at exactly the same place (with the occasional cave were he can spawn in 2 or 3 different places) and monsters along the road in exactly the same places. Why????
So we can agree that it might not work on the final super boss, but why have everything else that way for that reason? Even D1 had some of the bosses in preset and pre created area. They figured that one out too :)
Why? Apparently players sometimes use that tactics (I do for cases in STV were I typically pulled a shaman together with a melee monster and I am sure others did too), yet I died at least once and saw others too. So why would monsters do that too? Adjust the monster so that it doesn't do a million HP which is only needed since it is supposed to fight plate warriors (who just are there to absorb the damage). It might require priests to perhaps think about protection they wear and use. The priest might need attention for healing by, for example the Paladin and so on. Adapt, change tactics, do something else. When you play solo as a priest, monsters in fact goes for you "first", yet you survive.
Ahh, this is the sort of thing I am looking for. True, I am not looking for true AI, a bit more advance scripts that actually try to at least make some analyze of the situation and adapt is more than enough. They should have had it right from the start of the game and introduced it to players at lower levels, slowly. It would be much more interesting than now, were the improvements is generally in higher damage, more HP and some new skill you need to counter.
Zarathustra,Aug 29 2005, 05:26 PM Wrote:One of the most annoying things as a spellcaster is when the warrior is holding a melee opponent quite well, and in mid-cast you're interrupted because the mob saw your casting and decided to shield bash you before going back to their prior target.
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That is cool, although I have never so far seen anything close to it.
oldmandennis,Aug 29 2005, 08:52 PM Wrote:/agree
It's a good idea, but you'd be talking about a very different game.
Of course. That is what I am looking for. I agree with most other things you wrote (that I did not quote) as well. But so what? Why implement the same system everyone else is using? Why not do something interesting and much more fun? Perhaps it is just me it would be much more fun and interesting to. Of course people would learn to counter different tactics from monsters, but that is when it turns more into a game of skill, than one of level and equipment. Now, you learn a primary overall strategy and stick to it with variations because you know before how most monsters behave.
Descended,Aug 29 2005, 09:36 PM Wrote:Without positioning control, agro lists are the only effective tool I can think of for the developers to use; otherwise, all mobs would immediately swarm mages, then clerics, then warlocks, then rogues, then hunters, etc, if they knew what was good for them.
Exactly!!! After all, isn't that what players often do? Of course one need to adjust the whole game, characters and so on. But, so what? Then you might not have to give a monster tons of HP and super damage just to make it challenging. Then players are not as tied into "healer", "damager", "tank" and so on either. The role might vary with encounter much more and so on.
fractaled,Aug 30 2005, 02:41 AM Wrote:random dungeons probably would have kept me around for more of the loot grind... I just couldn't stand it with the EXACT same dungeons over and over... random spawn locations, or different sets of enemies would also have helped a lot...
Yes, that is one of my other major "problem" with this type of game. Why do monsters have to have exact spawn points? Why not randomize it? If for no other reason to get around camping (which I understand is a bigger problem in other games than WoW though, right?). Why not randomize herbs and such more too. One can still have it as "randomize adjacent to a tree trunk" for one type and so on. No, instead they make it more "random" by having 3 or 4 (or perhaps a few more) possible places to pick from. It is still not random though.
TheLuminaire,Aug 30 2005, 04:16 AM Wrote:You've hit on the major reasons why there isn't more randomness to the encounters. Random spawns would be the easiest of them to implement, but you run into problems. What happens if groups spawn too close together?
Then you have a harder situation, so what?
TheLuminaire,Aug 30 2005, 04:16 AM Wrote: If you get a "bad roll" on a random dugueon, it's not as simple to reset, or move past it as it is in Diablo. Take a look at problems they had in past with Blackwing Lair. It used to be that the dragonkin spawns in the Razorgore fight were somewhat random. If your guild got a "bad roll" on the amount, it could be seriously disasterous. As a result of player outcry, this was changed.
So? The game is not completely predictable and is sometimes harder, sometimes easier. What is the problem? Still, it doesn't necessarily have to apply to special instances and such as the one you mention. But the VERY same default spawn places exists out in the open in random areas were there is just monsters wandering around, were it doesn't matter if you get two of them too close. Even in smaller caves and such, were you typically should slay some boss in there (there are many of those right from the newbie area), they still have the boss at exactly the same place (with the occasional cave were he can spawn in 2 or 3 different places) and monsters along the road in exactly the same places. Why????
So we can agree that it might not work on the final super boss, but why have everything else that way for that reason? Even D1 had some of the bosses in preset and pre created area. They figured that one out too :)
Skandranon,Aug 30 2005, 06:59 AM Wrote:So far as I can tell, the things there are more "intelligent"; not in the sense that they'll target priests first (since any monster who did that would always win against a PC group)
Why? Apparently players sometimes use that tactics (I do for cases in STV were I typically pulled a shaman together with a melee monster and I am sure others did too), yet I died at least once and saw others too. So why would monsters do that too? Adjust the monster so that it doesn't do a million HP which is only needed since it is supposed to fight plate warriors (who just are there to absorb the damage). It might require priests to perhaps think about protection they wear and use. The priest might need attention for healing by, for example the Paladin and so on. Adapt, change tactics, do something else. When you play solo as a priest, monsters in fact goes for you "first", yet you survive.
Skandranon,Aug 30 2005, 06:59 AM Wrote:Hakkari Priests have a variety of abilities that they'll employ effectively: for example, if they get polymorphed, they'll anti-magic shell themselves once they get out of it in order to avoid being repolymorphed, then dive for the largest concentration of players and hit Psychic Scream, their AoE fear. If they aren't being actively attacked they'll usually toss a heal on their most injured ally. It's elaborate scripting rather than "AI", but definitely more than simple aggro-list attacks.
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Ahh, this is the sort of thing I am looking for. True, I am not looking for true AI, a bit more advance scripts that actually try to at least make some analyze of the situation and adapt is more than enough. They should have had it right from the start of the game and introduced it to players at lower levels, slowly. It would be much more interesting than now, were the improvements is generally in higher damage, more HP and some new skill you need to counter.
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