Some comments...
Sure, one can create danger and have a single mistake cause death, you don't even need a monster for that. Old platform games had that too. I would still, however, liked better monster AI and more variety in how monster behaves. Sure, I am not level 60 yet, however, I really can't say that monsters behave to different skills used in anything even remotely attributable to some intelligence.
Perhaps the game suddenly changes at 60, perhaps you only get smart monsters in instances, but then the question is, why? Why only in those places?
Sure, there are plenty of those things. They have nothing to do with any AI for the monsters though. It is a scripted things that is a result of the HP falling low.
That is not AI any more than giving a monster dieing an explosion. Sure, it makes it needed for a different tactics, but it doesn't make the monsters either more smart in the way they act or behaving any different based on who they fight versus. Do they do the same if there is ONLY a tank there? Basically knocking him out of battle so that suddenly there is no one for the boss to fight? If not, there is no AI., it is just an effect set into one of its attacks.
Still not knowing all the things about aggro, radius and such (and thus I might actually be wrong in some of my comments), from experience so far, doesn't that require you to be knocked VERY far away?
Ahh, yes, that is interesting since it breaks the "go with the highest aggro enemy", to bad you have to wait all the way until Molten Core to experience such a "rule breaker" :) It would be even more interesting if it did this charge based on some sort of intelligent decision, like a weak armour character getting to close, into charge range, or if it is done versus someone that is due to some criteria decided to be "dangerous" for the fight, perhaps versus a healer. Just some ideas.
After all, a concept of "occasionally random attack someone else" is hardly rocket science AI :)
Which is a pretty stupid concept (not you, the game design by Blizzard). Why should there exist a simple game to reach 60, and only then do you start to experience the thrilling smart monsters and varying combat? It sure leads to the thing that people want to rush through the game which is sad in my opinion. In addition, you probably is less inclined to start a new char since you must "rush" him to 60 before the fun starts again and so on. Those that never reaches 60 or do high level raids will of course never see those smart monsters either I presume.
No, randomness is not what I really want, although there should be some randomness to things or it gets to predictable. A monster can have several smart ways to fight for example, pick among targets in a somewhat smart way, not strictly by "most aggro" or "closest".
None of this is attributed to AI though. Sure, causes you to develop different strategies and such and is all fine. But my gripe was with completely stupid and predictable monsters.
Exactly. And I think even for high level stuff, there really isn't THAT much as far as AI goes. Sure, it is not an easy subject but one can do quite a bit more even with limited skills in AI. I am not looking for tactical thinking of groups of monsters and such, just a little bit more smart behaviour or at least a few different scripted behaviour, since now, it is basically the same script to everyone (what I call the "go for the one with most aggro") with apparently some exception to high level raids or so.
I feel Blizzard should have hired some with good skill in AI for their game.
vor_lord,Aug 29 2005, 04:32 PM Wrote:What they have done instead is to try and have the AI (such as it is) respond to just the skills that are actually used. It's a very simple, stable, and predictable system. The instance encounters are generally well enough designed that there is still plenty of danger, and a single mistake can wipe an entire group.
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Sure, one can create danger and have a single mistake cause death, you don't even need a monster for that. Old platform games had that too. I would still, however, liked better monster AI and more variety in how monster behaves. Sure, I am not level 60 yet, however, I really can't say that monsters behave to different skills used in anything even remotely attributable to some intelligence.
Perhaps the game suddenly changes at 60, perhaps you only get smart monsters in instances, but then the question is, why? Why only in those places?
kandrathe,Aug 29 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote: I think there are some other things that are interesting, like when Raptors scream for help causing adds.
Sure, there are plenty of those things. They have nothing to do with any AI for the monsters though. It is a scripted things that is a result of the HP falling low.
kandrathe,Aug 29 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote:In the high level instances you see new AI phenomena, for example, a boss will knock back your tank out of the bosses aggro radius effectively zeroing it, and the boss heads for the healers (uh, oh!).
That is not AI any more than giving a monster dieing an explosion. Sure, it makes it needed for a different tactics, but it doesn't make the monsters either more smart in the way they act or behaving any different based on who they fight versus. Do they do the same if there is ONLY a tank there? Basically knocking him out of battle so that suddenly there is no one for the boss to fight? If not, there is no AI., it is just an effect set into one of its attacks.
Still not knowing all the things about aggro, radius and such (and thus I might actually be wrong in some of my comments), from experience so far, doesn't that require you to be knocked VERY far away?
kandrathe,Aug 29 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote: Or, some mobs in Molten Core, have a hate list but randomly choose a secondary target and charge it (with a bowling pin effect for anyone around you), then rubber band back to whomever they were attacking before. This new AI means that the players must create new tactics and strategies for dealing with them. I've heard that BWL is yet another set of tactical challenges.
Ahh, yes, that is interesting since it breaks the "go with the highest aggro enemy", to bad you have to wait all the way until Molten Core to experience such a "rule breaker" :) It would be even more interesting if it did this charge based on some sort of intelligent decision, like a weak armour character getting to close, into charge range, or if it is done versus someone that is due to some criteria decided to be "dangerous" for the fight, perhaps versus a healer. Just some ideas.
After all, a concept of "occasionally random attack someone else" is hardly rocket science AI :)
kandrathe,Aug 29 2005, 04:35 PM Wrote:So I look at PVE WOW as two games, the "getting to 60" game, and the "what do I do now that I'm 60" game.
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Which is a pretty stupid concept (not you, the game design by Blizzard). Why should there exist a simple game to reach 60, and only then do you start to experience the thrilling smart monsters and varying combat? It sure leads to the thing that people want to rush through the game which is sad in my opinion. In addition, you probably is less inclined to start a new char since you must "rush" him to 60 before the fun starts again and so on. Those that never reaches 60 or do high level raids will of course never see those smart monsters either I presume.
acidjax,Aug 29 2005, 05:09 PM Wrote:If the goal is randomness to cause dynamic game play then monster AI is not the only factor.
No, randomness is not what I really want, although there should be some randomness to things or it gets to predictable. A monster can have several smart ways to fight for example, pick among targets in a somewhat smart way, not strictly by "most aggro" or "closest".
acidjax,Aug 29 2005, 05:09 PM Wrote:Higher level monsters have different consequences for killing them, damaging them, or even not killing them fast enough. One monster releases a point blank AoE poison cloud upon death that deals 350dps and persists for around 30 seconds. Another monster reflects magic spells and effects. Killing certain monsters will cause them to split into more monsters upon death and others will deal heavy explosion damage when killed. Monster effects like these require players to handle different encounters differently and yet are independent of AI depth.
None of this is attributed to AI though. Sure, causes you to develop different strategies and such and is all fine. But my gripe was with completely stupid and predictable monsters.
acidjax,Aug 29 2005, 05:09 PM Wrote:If anything, perhaps Blizzard should have made the lower/mid-level range monsters do more things.
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Exactly. And I think even for high level stuff, there really isn't THAT much as far as AI goes. Sure, it is not an easy subject but one can do quite a bit more even with limited skills in AI. I am not looking for tactical thinking of groups of monsters and such, just a little bit more smart behaviour or at least a few different scripted behaviour, since now, it is basically the same script to everyone (what I call the "go for the one with most aggro") with apparently some exception to high level raids or so.
I feel Blizzard should have hired some with good skill in AI for their game.
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