Raiding as we go forward

[Kevin]

Well, what if you help, but not in an obvious way? What if the council simply doesn't know you that well, and you haven't distinguished yourself in their eyes? Judgements under a council system can end up having to be extremely subjective, through no fault of the council's. What if you make one large mistake that everyone remembers every time it's time to decide who gets what?

And, it's not like Pesmerga is advocating /random as a system, quite the opposite in fact... there are 4 different systems that he/she has put up for discussion in this thread.
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That's why you try to quantify everything for the council, try and limit the amount of subjectiveness. Mirajj has been on 8 of 10 raids, in those raids we have killed these bosses. Two of those raids we had learning encounters so half points there, yadda yadda. So Mirajj has a total of 35 points. Thaleon has been on 4 out of 10 raids we have killed these bosses, yadda yadda, he has 21 points. Hunter set drops, neither has it, but Mirajj has won an epic and a multiclass ring because of the way drops have gone. Thaleon has nothing. Set is not needed for the progress of the raid, my vote goes that Thaleon gets the item. Not really that simple but just trying to be more concrete on who I see things working.

But yeah with an alliance, as Skan pointed out when I first brought it up, the council does have to deal with the issues you presented. As for one big mistake, that comes back to trusting that people will forgive you for it if you show you aren't going to be making mistakes all the time. And we all make mistakes. I've wiped groups because of mistakes I've made. I wiped an early Onyxia run becuase I didn't get away from the whelp pits in time and got swiped in there. Yes I realize that my council gets closer to a points system than just a council. That is because I'm trying to blend the best of both systems and mitigate the problems of both systems.

And yep I know Pesmerga has mentioned several systems. I don't really have a big issue with a points system, anymore. My post that started this thread did but input has changed my mind on it. I just don't like the list system he proposed. I've thought more about it and I don't think it addresses our casual fluid nature well enough without having to add more layers of complexity to it and since one of the biggest things it has going is it's simplicity I'd rather go to points over it if you start to add complexity to it.

Another thing to consider is how fast can the systems parcel out loot in practice. You want to move quickly after Luci is down because of respawns and you want to move quickly in general to just get more done. A list still has the time of "who wants this multi class item" though it's very fast on the class specific items. A list is probably fastest of all. A council will be either really fast or really slow. If the points tracked show that one hunter is the next one "due" then when the hunter set piece drops it's done. However you can bog down in debate with it. Points will be middle ground all the time I think. Never faster than a list but should be just as fast as the way we go now (with our modified /random) and should be between the the extremes of a council.

First one listed is the one that I feel answers that question best.

- How well do they insure gear gets to the people that need it the most to help insure smooth progress? (Even if Anandrol or Darian or Gnolack or Telsak or Thumpster or whoever can tank things well enough now to insure progress, things would go smoother if one or more of them had better gear)
* Council is the best at this.
* Points is pretty good at this because more points to the people that are there the most.
* List is OK at this since you will move up the list if you are there more and have more shots at stuff
* random is indifferent to this.

- How well do they insure that everyone gets loot?
* Council can make sure this happens they can choose to award something to a new raid member if everyone else has won something
* List will get something to to everyone once enough loot drops
* Points will get something to everyone faster than random but can't insure that everyone gets something
* Random is indifferent to this

- How well do they work with a fluid group
* Random actually shows no favoritism to anyone. Everyone has a shot at loot
* Points are pretty fair to members who aren't there as much as has been pointed out in other posts. It's not really true that they hurt people who aren't there as much
* Council can insure that everyone gets stuff, but it does have issues of favoritism that can be a big issue.
* List can work well with this maybe better than a council but it needs some more complexity to it. I think my bias lists it below.

- How much control over your fate do they each have?
* Points let you choose what you want they let you control how many you have and how you want to spend them.
* List lets you pass on items if you are at the top but you are still "waiting in line"
* Council lets you raise in standing by being there and working well, but you still don't know if you have a chance at the item. I think it is pretty close to a list but since I listed council before list in another close category list gets it here.
* Random lets you have a chance at anything but you really have no control over if you get that item.

- How much potential for major disaster do they have? (being listed first here is bad)
* Council can start a lot of infighting and bickering
* Random can cause a lot of bitterness
* List can make you annoyed at loss of control and knowing you have no shot at the next set item of your class that drops
* Points can lead to collusion and class vs class issues.

What other things do we need to worry about with this group and should we judge the systems against?