04-14-2003, 09:33 PM
Hi.
No objection to points 1-4. Our disagreement lies in additional support for the Iraqi WMD program besides any biological samples which have been delivered. Nobody will be able to come up with credible proof in favour or against this hypothesis. So I decided to no longer discuss this point.
Point 5 - I will repeat it again: this is no competition in morality. I am the first to admit that many nations did a lot more than delivering some biological samples and that this was wrong. It was not the point, though.
In the next parts of your post you mix the discussion with questions as "Was the war justified?", "Is 'Old Europes' position selfish or ignorant or just moral?", "peacenick vs. warmonger", ...
That is a whole different discussion and you may be surprised about my opinions there. Please do not make the all to easy error of identifying persons with nations regarding politics.
Ok, some statements regarding my perception of the war (all IMO, of course):
- There was no very imminent threat so that the timing has a bad smell
(this does not say anything on "Was the war avoidable?").
- The final outcome of the US engagement in GME is very unclear to me and produces some fear of very,
very bad scenarios (e.g. new age of world-wide terrorism).
Still the "peace could be won" (and I truly do hope so...). I just deem it not very probable given the ethnic
background of the people involved ("eye for an eye" until self-destruction; a generalization, of course).
It is really incomparable to the situation in Germany after WWII.
- I have a deep distrust regarding the US' current administration. Knowing of the PNAC, their agenda, their
leader's positions today, knowing of Bush's, Cheney's, .... economical background I will be very surprised if
the Iraqi people can freely choose who will "purchase" their oil.
But that is easy. We will see who gets the big contracts, which interests will be payed, etc. It will
eventually get clear.
Disclaimer: Please do not mix this with anti-Americanism or insult. You have to make a difference between
the American people, its political system and the people currently dominating it.
- Is the UN organization of any value today? Well, is it?
- I do not like the comparison between Bosnia and Iraq. Bosnia was torn by a cruel civil war when the NATO
chose to take action. So the point that "Yugoslavia" as a state was no longer existent has some merit.
Iraq in 2002/2003 was a souvereign state. Yes, it was ruled by a dictator and the people suffered. The
same in (roughly estimated) 80% of the world (some of the dictatorships are harder to recognize but I
count them).
- What will be the "lesson learned" for every small but unscrupulous dictator? Are you sure?
- Will the USA in the long run be able to contain the danger from WMD in the posession of dictators by
military actions/threats or are we in dire need for much more subtle strategies?
- It was a great move with regard to global power politics to divide the Europeans. There are many positive
effects for the US (for example the $ will probably continue to be the oil currency - a key point for the US
economy - at least if they do not "loose the peace" very bad).
Will it be such a great move in the long run?
- What will be bred from the stronger than ever connection between religion, patriotism and black-white
thinking (Is this PC? Or should I say red-green? :-) ) in the US? Add in the anti-terror "laws"
and "security" measures and you may see where this could end (I do not hope so).
- Yes, it is great that Saddam's regime has been defeated. This could give the Iraqi people a chance. Maybe.
- Yes, cheap oil may be the spark that the global economy needs to start the next cycle. In spite of this I
fear a major break down someday. Just look at the western countries deficits and remember the
properties of exponential functions.
Warning: Some of these opinions are subject to rapid change... :-)
Just some thoughts of someone who does not claim to be correct more often than not.
Bye,
ergates
No objection to points 1-4. Our disagreement lies in additional support for the Iraqi WMD program besides any biological samples which have been delivered. Nobody will be able to come up with credible proof in favour or against this hypothesis. So I decided to no longer discuss this point.
Point 5 - I will repeat it again: this is no competition in morality. I am the first to admit that many nations did a lot more than delivering some biological samples and that this was wrong. It was not the point, though.
In the next parts of your post you mix the discussion with questions as "Was the war justified?", "Is 'Old Europes' position selfish or ignorant or just moral?", "peacenick vs. warmonger", ...
That is a whole different discussion and you may be surprised about my opinions there. Please do not make the all to easy error of identifying persons with nations regarding politics.
Ok, some statements regarding my perception of the war (all IMO, of course):
- There was no very imminent threat so that the timing has a bad smell
(this does not say anything on "Was the war avoidable?").
- The final outcome of the US engagement in GME is very unclear to me and produces some fear of very,
very bad scenarios (e.g. new age of world-wide terrorism).
Still the "peace could be won" (and I truly do hope so...). I just deem it not very probable given the ethnic
background of the people involved ("eye for an eye" until self-destruction; a generalization, of course).
It is really incomparable to the situation in Germany after WWII.
- I have a deep distrust regarding the US' current administration. Knowing of the PNAC, their agenda, their
leader's positions today, knowing of Bush's, Cheney's, .... economical background I will be very surprised if
the Iraqi people can freely choose who will "purchase" their oil.
But that is easy. We will see who gets the big contracts, which interests will be payed, etc. It will
eventually get clear.
Disclaimer: Please do not mix this with anti-Americanism or insult. You have to make a difference between
the American people, its political system and the people currently dominating it.
- Is the UN organization of any value today? Well, is it?
- I do not like the comparison between Bosnia and Iraq. Bosnia was torn by a cruel civil war when the NATO
chose to take action. So the point that "Yugoslavia" as a state was no longer existent has some merit.
Iraq in 2002/2003 was a souvereign state. Yes, it was ruled by a dictator and the people suffered. The
same in (roughly estimated) 80% of the world (some of the dictatorships are harder to recognize but I
count them).
- What will be the "lesson learned" for every small but unscrupulous dictator? Are you sure?
- Will the USA in the long run be able to contain the danger from WMD in the posession of dictators by
military actions/threats or are we in dire need for much more subtle strategies?
- It was a great move with regard to global power politics to divide the Europeans. There are many positive
effects for the US (for example the $ will probably continue to be the oil currency - a key point for the US
economy - at least if they do not "loose the peace" very bad).
Will it be such a great move in the long run?
- What will be bred from the stronger than ever connection between religion, patriotism and black-white
thinking (Is this PC? Or should I say red-green? :-) ) in the US? Add in the anti-terror "laws"
and "security" measures and you may see where this could end (I do not hope so).
- Yes, it is great that Saddam's regime has been defeated. This could give the Iraqi people a chance. Maybe.
- Yes, cheap oil may be the spark that the global economy needs to start the next cycle. In spite of this I
fear a major break down someday. Just look at the western countries deficits and remember the
properties of exponential functions.
Warning: Some of these opinions are subject to rapid change... :-)
Just some thoughts of someone who does not claim to be correct more often than not.
Bye,
ergates