Defensive Stance

[Olon97]

[edit: split into 2 posts so quotes would work]

There is some overlap in the recent pulling discussion here with what was discussed in this thread on hunter pulling.

Let me first preface that when I'm playing my warrior with a group with good communication, I'm always open to having another player serve as the dedicated puller (on smaller sized pulls).

My problem in general with "baton pass" pullers, is just like a relay race, that extra step can be messed up (feign death can be resisted, presumably so can feint), leaving a rageless warrior in a rough spot (popping a rage potion is my default reaction to a failed pass-off). In a pickup group that mostly communicates with grunts and "hurry up!"s, I'm going to insist on pulling, and might not give the full treatise on why I prefer it. The bottom line is it's the simplest way to for me to get initial aggro without a Rube Golberg series of events. I'll put it in the oversimplified terms: "you pull, you tank".

Again, in a good group with good communication, I'm willing to dump the occasional rage potion and adapt because ultimately as long as the job gets done and people have fun, the exact tactics are secondary.

I play a Rogue. I have done several instance runs as a Rogue. I consider it my duty to scout and pull, and I do both VERY well. That you say a Rogue should not pull, that a Rogue who does will make it 10x harder for a Warrior to get and hold aggro, that you automatically put ALL the blame on a Rogue is not only insulting, but utterly foolish and misguided.

Agreed that blaming any class for a pull gone wrong by default is jumping to conclusions. It's not 10x harder having a non-tank pull, but quite often it is harder. I'm glad you scout and pull well, but you may be expecting too much of others if you think strangers will be comfortable with a rogue as primary puller. All classes have bad players (esp. warriors) or even players who have the occasional mess up, but on average the least complex path to a given end (the end being the tank holding aggro on as much as possible) is going to be the one people prefer until they know their compatriots' capabilities.

First off, A Warrior's job IMHO is NOT to pull. A Warrior has minimal ranged abilities and virtually NO crowd-control abilities, both of which are ESSENTIAL to proper pulling. A Hunter is probably the best puller, combining exceptional ranged attacks, strong HP, decent armor, and a pet to make the easiest pulling possible. A Rogue, OTOH, comes in second, FAR above any Warrior. We have ranged attacks (Thrown most notable, but Bows and Crossbows we can use, as well), Stealth (aside from a Mage casting Invisibility on someone, there's no one else who can move around undetected), and a plethora of crowd control and aggro REDUCING skills. As such, we are fully equipped to deal with pulling a mob, and then losing the aggro.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree, IMHO. Piercing Howl, an AoE daze is an excellent crowd control ability (so much so that I can't imagine building a dedicated tank without it, makes runners and mobs going after cloth classes much easier to manage). Sheep, one of the most effective CC options can be cast after the warrior initiates a pull. Stealth is a scouting issue, not a pulling issue, and can be replaced by familiarity with an instance (you don't need a scout if you already expect the patrols in their usual spots), and sap is situational - I generally only agree to sap as initial CC on pulls that have 0 chance of adds (usually bosses at the ends of rooms).

Now, let's analyze your observations, one by one. You state that a Warrior's job is to stand there and get beat on while everyone ELSE piles on the damage. This is wholly absurd. First off, Warriors are DPS machines. The only ones who can compete with them are Rogues and Mages - the former not being able to stand up to long fights due to medium Health, and the latter having to cast spells from afar. Warriors are specifically engineered to not only dish out damage up-close and personal, but also to absorb it all the while, taking the brunt of the abuse in any given fight. So your response that it is everyone else's job to dish out the heavy damage while a Warrior just stands there like a brick wall is patently absurd.

As someone who plays a warrior specced to tank (unlike the many 1-59 warriors specced to solo/PvP) I almost laughed when you refer to the class as DPS machines. Our best aggro generating skills, shield block, revenge, sunder armor, and shield bash do minimal damage and as instances get rougher, a main tank will have little time or rage to do much else. When playing in tanking mode, I am unmistakably out DPSed by every other class in my party (including shadow spec priests who enjoy having to heal so rarely), but can often keep all mobs locked on me without the need for significant restraint by other party members. I suspect your experiences with warriors has been with players who don't really wish to tank, and therefore aren't terribly effective at it, but do better DPS as a result. The "wall" analogy is not absurd, it is how the class functions when the player behind the toon allows it to serve as such.

Secondly, you state that whenever a Rogue pulls (maybe ones YOU'VE played with, and if that's so then you have some BAD playing partners), the Warrior has to run backwards and attempt to peel off the mob from the Rogue, thus making his life that much more difficult. If a Rogue is played properly, there is NEVER a time where this will happen, period. The battle plan for ANY group involving a Tank and a Rogue should be to set up a safe zone (refer to the Hunter analysis at 8-Bit Theatre for more on this), clear of monsters and with enough room for everyone to maneuver around comfortably. You set up your Tank(s) in front, with your Casters and Healers in the far back, about 10 or so yards behind the Tank(s). This whole party remains about 20 - 30 yards behind the Rogue, who is up ahead scouting around while Stealthed, attempting to find the best target, and waiting for the proper timing to pull.

Again, I disagree with your generalization about default warrior-rogue battle plans for similar reasons to my disagreements with the 8-bit theatre's hunter/warrior battle plan. I also agree with the points made by lemekim in the hunter thread which contradict this type of argument. I prefer the cloth wearers nearby so they are easier to pull mobs off of (I like to leave my toon's back to the pull facing the rest of the group so it is very easy to see what is on me and what isn't - as well as giving all other physical damage dealers the benefits of an exposed back). No argument about fighting in safe zones when they exist, although that is immaterial to the topic.