01-24-2005, 10:14 PM
Gnolack is only L31 right now, and just put his first point in a tree other than protection, and that was put into deflection to up defense even more.
I use Cosmos, so I have the second bar up all the time, that bar holds sunder armor, demoralizing shout, battle shout, bloodrage, shield bash, cleave, challenging shout, intimidating shout and anything else that is usable in multiple stances. The main bar holds my defensive skills; revenge, shield block, disarm, taunt. Heroic strike and rend, while being available everywhere are on my main skill bar in both defensive and battle stance, on the same keys as well since they got put there early and I got used to them being where they are.
I also prefer using a one hander and shield to minimize damage even more. So most of my discussion of aggro will be from that perspective, and from what I have seen people seem to think getting and holding aggro like that is even harder.
I placed my talent points to get concussive blow as early as possible and this skill features pretty much as a second taunt skill for me. Sure it has a 45 second cool down but that is still a lot better than mocking blow. It can be used every fight because of fight lengths and time between combat without any problems. Stuns are great aggro tools though. And this is where shield block and improved revenge become your friends. Since revenge is triggered when you not the mob, block, parry or dodge you can make a revenge available whenever you want by using shield block. 15 rage (10 for shield block 5 for revenge) may seem better spent somewhere else, but I don't agree. With a 40% chance to stun for 3 seconds, as well as blocking the damage from two attacks as well as getting some free (though minor) damage, it works quite well and is part of the reason why I don't take much more than a HoT to keep me healthy, unless I have more than 3 mobs on me.
How do you get aggro if you don't pull or from an add or when things peel off to a squishy? Well Bloodrage, since you will have improved bloodrage from talents, is very handy at generating rage to do a sunder armor or concussive blow (or whatever else you want), which generates a lot of aggro. So you can bloodrage, taunt then sunder, though you may need to do one swing to have the 15 rage for sunder. If the taunt is resisted the sunder may very well pull it, a concussive blow will pretty much always pull it as well as stopping the damage to the squishy. You can then sit there and shield block and revenge and hold aggro quite well. Don't be afraid of bloodrage you already have a HoT on you I'm sure and that will completely overwhelm the loss of life and again if you put points in improved bloodrage which you will probably want to do to get last stand anyway, the penalty is even less.
At the start of the fight you can always stand back a bit and charge whatever was damaged in the pull and then thunderclap, demoralize shout, or sunder or whatever you like do with the rage to get the rest of the pulls attention before switching to defensive stance. If you have the extra toolbars charge in with your high DPS two hander and switch out to the one hander and shield later. Or stick with the higher DPS if the mobs don't hurt that much. I like to minimize the work of the healer and stun as much as possible, which takes a shield. Of course I will often put on my two hander in the middle of the fight to do a cleave and then put the one hander and sword back on as well. Takes some work, or a macro to do that but it helps.
Of course taunt is your bread and butter. If it is resisted a concussive blow, a revenge from something else that you were blocking or a sunder armor will do well to help you get the aggro, and of course taunt is a short cool down so you can try again when it is resisted. The thing you hit with revenges and you were beating on will follow you as you go pick up the other thing you want aggro on so you can switch back to it after you get your aggro. Cleave of course helps keep the other mobs that aren't being worked on stuck to you and generating a little rage as you get hit by them or block them. Keeping demoralizing shout up helps with that as well. Shield bash will pretty much always get you aggro from a caster if you interrupt them. Disarm doesn't seem to be a great aggro generator, though I still use it on any hard hitting mob to minimize damage.
Remember with taunt, using it early doesn't really do anything. However, using it later on is great. Rogue just did a 5 combo evis? Taunt, all that hate is now yours and you should be able to generate just as fast as the rogue does while the combo points are building back up. Mage did an AoE that pulled something off you? Taunt it, that hate is all yours now, and you probably did a little more damage to it as well when you went to get it. When taunt is resisted that can be a problem, but that is why I plopped two talent points into getting it back even sooner. And of course depending on if you had to use it already you have your concussive blow and/or disarm to mitigate damage if you do lose the aggro on a hard hitter, or maybe a little luck with a revenge.
Some things that I have not tested well enough but seem to work from observation. Blocking seems to generate aggro. Things that I have blocked but not hit have stuck to me when things that I have not hit were peeled by a big heal or AoE spell. That just makes the shield block revenge and whittle away method even better. Again this isn't well tested but a stunned creature seems to generate no hate to anyone while stunned. I have stunned a mob that had aggro on a priest, the priest then mind blasted the mob with a crit hit no less and the mob attacked me when it came out of the stun. It might be (though this is probably wishful thinking) that the hate a mob generates while stunned goes to the person who stunned it. Needs to be tested a more though. But I have never had problems holding aggro with something that I have stunned. I'm also suspecting that defiance generates that extra aggro for everything around you not just the mob you are beating on. It seems the more points I put in defiance the easier it is to hold aggro on things that I haven't touched.
Again the other advantage to this is the instant 10% damage reduction from protective stance, and all the extra damage stopping that shield block will get you, the drop in damage from the stuns (and revenge is usable a lot, unlike overpower) is also noticable. This means your priest is now healing you less and using the wand or shadow spells to help damage to make up for some of the lack a damage output. I'm of course planning on getting one handed weapon spec to generate even more damage.
I have held aggro against someone who was doing about 2.5 times the dps I was by just doing sunders, shield blocks and revenges without any trouble.
I hope some of that helps. I really enjoy playing a defensive spec warrior. I'm starting a build on a fury based dual weilder just to see what can be done in the other stances better. I find that I don't actually switch stances a lot, I end up in defensive most of the time and I'm probably missing out on somethings. I'm looking forward to getting berserek stance and intercept to help track things down but I don't have that yet.
I use Cosmos, so I have the second bar up all the time, that bar holds sunder armor, demoralizing shout, battle shout, bloodrage, shield bash, cleave, challenging shout, intimidating shout and anything else that is usable in multiple stances. The main bar holds my defensive skills; revenge, shield block, disarm, taunt. Heroic strike and rend, while being available everywhere are on my main skill bar in both defensive and battle stance, on the same keys as well since they got put there early and I got used to them being where they are.
I also prefer using a one hander and shield to minimize damage even more. So most of my discussion of aggro will be from that perspective, and from what I have seen people seem to think getting and holding aggro like that is even harder.
I placed my talent points to get concussive blow as early as possible and this skill features pretty much as a second taunt skill for me. Sure it has a 45 second cool down but that is still a lot better than mocking blow. It can be used every fight because of fight lengths and time between combat without any problems. Stuns are great aggro tools though. And this is where shield block and improved revenge become your friends. Since revenge is triggered when you not the mob, block, parry or dodge you can make a revenge available whenever you want by using shield block. 15 rage (10 for shield block 5 for revenge) may seem better spent somewhere else, but I don't agree. With a 40% chance to stun for 3 seconds, as well as blocking the damage from two attacks as well as getting some free (though minor) damage, it works quite well and is part of the reason why I don't take much more than a HoT to keep me healthy, unless I have more than 3 mobs on me.
How do you get aggro if you don't pull or from an add or when things peel off to a squishy? Well Bloodrage, since you will have improved bloodrage from talents, is very handy at generating rage to do a sunder armor or concussive blow (or whatever else you want), which generates a lot of aggro. So you can bloodrage, taunt then sunder, though you may need to do one swing to have the 15 rage for sunder. If the taunt is resisted the sunder may very well pull it, a concussive blow will pretty much always pull it as well as stopping the damage to the squishy. You can then sit there and shield block and revenge and hold aggro quite well. Don't be afraid of bloodrage you already have a HoT on you I'm sure and that will completely overwhelm the loss of life and again if you put points in improved bloodrage which you will probably want to do to get last stand anyway, the penalty is even less.
At the start of the fight you can always stand back a bit and charge whatever was damaged in the pull and then thunderclap, demoralize shout, or sunder or whatever you like do with the rage to get the rest of the pulls attention before switching to defensive stance. If you have the extra toolbars charge in with your high DPS two hander and switch out to the one hander and shield later. Or stick with the higher DPS if the mobs don't hurt that much. I like to minimize the work of the healer and stun as much as possible, which takes a shield. Of course I will often put on my two hander in the middle of the fight to do a cleave and then put the one hander and sword back on as well. Takes some work, or a macro to do that but it helps.
Of course taunt is your bread and butter. If it is resisted a concussive blow, a revenge from something else that you were blocking or a sunder armor will do well to help you get the aggro, and of course taunt is a short cool down so you can try again when it is resisted. The thing you hit with revenges and you were beating on will follow you as you go pick up the other thing you want aggro on so you can switch back to it after you get your aggro. Cleave of course helps keep the other mobs that aren't being worked on stuck to you and generating a little rage as you get hit by them or block them. Keeping demoralizing shout up helps with that as well. Shield bash will pretty much always get you aggro from a caster if you interrupt them. Disarm doesn't seem to be a great aggro generator, though I still use it on any hard hitting mob to minimize damage.
Remember with taunt, using it early doesn't really do anything. However, using it later on is great. Rogue just did a 5 combo evis? Taunt, all that hate is now yours and you should be able to generate just as fast as the rogue does while the combo points are building back up. Mage did an AoE that pulled something off you? Taunt it, that hate is all yours now, and you probably did a little more damage to it as well when you went to get it. When taunt is resisted that can be a problem, but that is why I plopped two talent points into getting it back even sooner. And of course depending on if you had to use it already you have your concussive blow and/or disarm to mitigate damage if you do lose the aggro on a hard hitter, or maybe a little luck with a revenge.
Some things that I have not tested well enough but seem to work from observation. Blocking seems to generate aggro. Things that I have blocked but not hit have stuck to me when things that I have not hit were peeled by a big heal or AoE spell. That just makes the shield block revenge and whittle away method even better. Again this isn't well tested but a stunned creature seems to generate no hate to anyone while stunned. I have stunned a mob that had aggro on a priest, the priest then mind blasted the mob with a crit hit no less and the mob attacked me when it came out of the stun. It might be (though this is probably wishful thinking) that the hate a mob generates while stunned goes to the person who stunned it. Needs to be tested a more though. But I have never had problems holding aggro with something that I have stunned. I'm also suspecting that defiance generates that extra aggro for everything around you not just the mob you are beating on. It seems the more points I put in defiance the easier it is to hold aggro on things that I haven't touched.
Again the other advantage to this is the instant 10% damage reduction from protective stance, and all the extra damage stopping that shield block will get you, the drop in damage from the stuns (and revenge is usable a lot, unlike overpower) is also noticable. This means your priest is now healing you less and using the wand or shadow spells to help damage to make up for some of the lack a damage output. I'm of course planning on getting one handed weapon spec to generate even more damage.
I have held aggro against someone who was doing about 2.5 times the dps I was by just doing sunders, shield blocks and revenges without any trouble.
I hope some of that helps. I really enjoy playing a defensive spec warrior. I'm starting a build on a fury based dual weilder just to see what can be done in the other stances better. I find that I don't actually switch stances a lot, I end up in defensive most of the time and I'm probably missing out on somethings. I'm looking forward to getting berserek stance and intercept to help track things down but I don't have that yet.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.