The Rogue's Gallery

[Roland]

I have 3 comments on this build that I hope are constructive:

1)
Without using Seal Fate, I question the use of dagger specialization.  Since you are planning precision (which I like to see, I think precision is a little underrated), dual weild specialization would seem a better choice for damage in most cases.  Doing the math on this:

A crit = 100% extra damage.
You get that extra damage an additional 5% of the time.  Overall average is 5% extra damage.  That damage is intermittent, you can go a whole kill without seeing a crit.

Dual weild: Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 1/3 of direct damage (50% penalty for off hand use)

Increase off hand by 50% and you have:
Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 3/6 (1/2) of direct damage
overall this is an increase of 16% damage.  That damage increase is CONSISTENT AND it allows you to be flexible with your weapons and use a sword or mace in your main hand if you want for better SS damage.

You have to get lucky for dagger spec to be better, but the odds say that most of the time you won't get lucky.  Dagger spec is for gamblers.  I'm a statistician, not a gambler.

You'd be surprised how much I Crit. My Crit rating on-screen is around ~15% (just slightly under). By boosting Dagger Specialization, I can get that up to 20% easily, and that's at level 25 with mediocre gear. I have 35 more levels to gain Agility and better gear to help boost my crit rating - I can see it hitting 25% easily, or at least 22% - 23%.

2)
I have heard that ther eis a cap to fastest weapon speed at 1.0 (though have not confirmed this) and with BF and SnD at the same time you're going to waste some speed if there is indeed a cap.  Also, without Seal fate, Improved BS or improved Ambush, there is no real advantage to a dagger.  May as well use a weapon that will do more damage with your primary combo point building skill (SS).  This goes along with swappling dagger spec. for dual weild spec.  All of the sudden you aren't restricted to daggers anymore.    SS becomes the bread and butter combo point generation method, and SS is WAY better with a high damage slow weapon.

Try a mace in your main hand and see what difference it makes.  Backstab never appealed to me that much, and when I switched to a mace in the main hand, I was AMAZED at how much easier life was when using SS.

Even if there is a cap, I haven't been relying on SnD nearly as much as I used to. I've been focusing on (or trying to) a quick 2-point to 3-point Rupture, letting the DoT stack with my opening Garrote (generally), while my crits and Poison wear the mob down. I don't rely on SS to boost my damage (although it does do that) so much as to build up combos for long-term damage. I'm finding that Eviscerate may just be too good to pass up on, but that wasn't really the purpose of this Rogue. SnD and/or Blade Fury may not prove to be as useful as I originally thought, given the speed of Daggers already, but we shall see. I have a long time to find out, and I can always respec.

I may try equipping a Sword (I don't think I've trained Maces yet - I forget where I can :P), but who knows. For now, I like my twin daggers. :D The thought of switching weapons has been on my mind, though. As for Dual-Wield Spec, see my comments above. I crit way more than I think you realize, and the damage output, while not significant at any one point in time, combined with my Poison damage just rip things to shreds over time. That's the only thing though - over time. I'm finding that with some of the tougher, harder-hitting mobs, time is a luxury I don't always have. ;)

3)
10 points in poisons?  I just find that's a lot on what is such a relatively minor portion of total damage.  For me, I almost always have crippling poison on my main weapon to prevent runners and the adds that runners bring with them.  I use mind-numbing situationally, sometimes using both crippling and mind numbing, foregoing any damage from poison.  The usefulness of these two poisons is far too great to spend on increasing instant poisons so much.  And there are SO many good talents for a rogue.  To go this deep in assasination and NOT get Cold Blood should be a crime.  Cold Blood is a free crit on an eviscerate every 3 minutes.  When trying to grind and killing quick, I generally go about 30 seconds per mob (usually I have to wait for distract to cool down if I use it on every mob)  So that's basically one free use ever 6 mobs.  A guaranteed crit Eviscerate is like a free kill.  Cheap shot, SS, gouge then cold blood + Eviscerate = dead yellow without me taking a single hit.  Combine that with blade flurry every 2 in your build minutes, and you are a leveling machine against normal mobs.  Your emergency situations become easy when you can use Evade AND BF AND a CB on Eviscerate.  Even though they changed Blade flurry to not hit 2 mobs when using Eviscerate.  (It used to)

Again, I think you're under-estimating my damage potential with Poisons. I can watch them go off as much as 6 or 8 times in any given fight, sometimes less, occasionally more in a longer / tougher fight. Believe me, all that damage adds up. And it's FREE! When I hit them, I deal my damage, and if my weapon procs, I get that much more damage on TOP of what I already dealt! Combine that with my crit rating and you have some serious damage potential in a fast-hitting Rogue. I've seen Paladins have trouble keeping aggro off me BECAUSE I do so much damage. As for Crippling Poison, that's what I have Garrote, Rupture, and Throwing Knives for. Blizzard didn't give us these skills for nothing. :P Knives are for opening AND closing a fight - more often the latter. :P

As for not taking Cold Blood, it just didn't strike me as that necessary. However, if I'm already going to have Improved SnD, I might as well place the point from Blade Fury in something else, right? I suppose I could do Cold Blood. It IS a free Crit, but the point of this build was to crit a significant amount of the time WITHOUT activating abilities. Where I'd REALLY like to place that point is in Ghostly Strike - it fits so well with the theme of the character, both skill- and roleplay-wise. The only problem is, I don't have enough points in Subtlety, although I could remedy that with a little switching around.

The other thing is, I don't want to be your cookie-cutter, spam-SS-Evisc-rinse-repeat Rogue. I like subtlety. I like sneaking up, Garroting them, dropping a Sinister Strike or two in there to build up a short combo, and finish off with a Rupture. After that, it's all gravy. I DO toss in Eviscerate, but only AFTER Rupture, and even then they're usually dead before I even have to. And, as I'm sure you know, Eviscerate with Daggers is not the most damaging thing in the world - it's almost a waste of a finisher. The theme behind this build is very simple: speed, criticals, and poison, with DoT aiding. I'm not relying on my weapon to do the bulk of my damage, I'm relying on it to deliver the two things that WILL make up the bulk of my damage: poison and criticals. It's just an experiment to see if this is, in fact, a viable build, partly because I LOVE the look of dual-daggers, and partly because I'm sick of hearing that Poisons offer such "insignificant" damage.

Personally I'd make that same build like this to add flexibility:
Move the dagger spec. points to dual weild spec.
Remove 10 points from poisons and add them as follows:
3 points Improved Eviscerate
3 points Ruthlessnes
1 point Relentless Strikes
1 point Cold Blood
1 point Riposte
1 point Improved SS

1) I'd prefer the points in Dagger Spec. for the improved Crit rating. I had toyed with the idea of going Dual-Wield Spec., but after seeing just a 3% increase in Crits, I knew I had found my path. The extra 5% may not make that huge of a difference since my rate is already so high, but it sure can't hurt. And again, it's not so much about the extra BASE damage as it is the extra CRIT and POISON damage. :)

2) Improved Eviscerate doesn't fit in with my build very much, since I RARELY use it (and I do mean rarely).

3) Ruthlessness is a possibility, as the added combo points would help. Free combo points never hurt, despite my minimal reliance on them (and yet I'm always struggling to gain more! ;)). Relentless Strikes, IF I go with Ruthlessness, would also be good, and the two do go hand-in-hand. However, that point in Relentless Strikes would be taken from Blade Fury (or, alternatively, Riposte, or Ghostly Strike).

4) Cold Blood, Riposte, and Improved SS would cost me my points in my Poison skills, which are the MAIN (did I say main? I mean main :D) theme behind this Rogue. Criticals go hand-in-hand with that (when I think Rogue, especially this one, I think of a lethal assassin who stalks you from the shadows and pierces your gullet with a poisoned dagger, letting you die quickly and silently from a mortal wound festering with venom); the two are married together and form the backbone of this Rogue. Going dual-daggers allows me to do that with speed, style, and most of all: low talent use. :) Going with Swords would mean potentially delving deeper into the Combat tree, not to mention losing Backstab (I don't use it often, but I use it often enough to want to use it), Ambush (see above), and 5% Critical Strike rating, which hurts the build's main focus.

I understand your comments and where you are coming from. I don't think you quite understand where I am coming from. I have stubbornly set myself on this path to prove a point (that Poison and Dual-Daggers are both viable, especially in tandem), and to have fun (what good is an MMORPG if you can't RP a character you like?).

- Cold Blood is too much to pass up because a crit Eviscerate does silly damage.

I know. I did a ~200 point Eviscerate on a Spider today, and that was only after about 2 points. 3 tops!

- Improved Eviscerate is there for the same reason
- Imp. SS, Ruthlessness and Relentless strikes are there to aid in energy and combo points.  Allows you (sometimes) do do a finisher right after a finisher.  Since with improved SnD even one combo point gives you 13 seconds of ginsu, SnD is excellent to use when low on combo points in this build.

This sounds VERY nice, and is definitely something I will have to try in the future, but for this Rogue, it doesn't quite fit in (Talent-point wise; if I had more points, there's a LOT I would boost, like Camouflage, Ghostly Strike, Riposte, etc.). Would that I could, but it's not fitting with the theme of the Rogue. Besides, it falls way too close to the Cookie-Cutter Rogue, and I want to stay as FAR away from that as possible (I want to try a Subtlety-focused Rogue one of these days).

- Riposte is there because you have the point and disarming a foe is not just cool, but adds to the defensive abilities your build is based around.  A disarmed mob is neutered.  It also deals 150% weapon damage, which builds nicely on not using a dagger.  Plus it's super cheap on energy.

See my comments throughout. I am leaning towards Riposte over Blade Fury, but Ghostly Strike would be far more useful to me, IMHO, and besides, I don't understand how this skill works. Do I have to use it immediately after I parry? Or once it activates (after I parry), will it stay available throughout the fight? Or only for a limited time? Because of my very rapid attacks (SnD makes it go so fast the numbers can't even keep up! :P), if it doesn't stay active throughout the fight (until I use it), it'd be useless to me because I'd never have the chance to use it before it deactivated. Otherwise, it's a possibility, but I think the point could go to better Talents.

This build does sound interesting if tweaked a bit. That you have no talents helping in combo point generation seems to go along with the fact that SnD is a little less reliant on combo points than other finishers.  It lacks an improved opener, but makes up for that a bit in the inclusion of the defensive talents that give you a bit more staying power.
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Combine that with my Poison, high Crit rate, and Precision (for improved hit rate). And as you noted, my heavy focus on defensive Talents (Dodging and Parrying), I can tank much better than your average Rogue, although when the hits DO get through they hurt just as much. :P I'm just better at dodging them without relying on Evasion. ;)

I do have ONE thought as to a big possible change, something I didn't give ANY consideration to due to minimal experience in my earlier levels: Expose Armor, and more specifically, Improved Expose Armor. I used this skill very little in my early levels, as most fights (like now) didn't last long enough for me to 1) notice any significant difference in damage output (probably due to my low-damage Daggers; hrmmm, maybe I was right to forgoe this skill?), and 2) didn't allow me to get up to 5 combo points fast enough to measure much of anything. I STILL find it difficult to get up to 5 combo points, but in those instance runs, it's not that uncommon on the tougher monsters. I don't know. I lost my train of thought on this one (I blame the g/f), but I HAD a point. :)

Anyway, a few potential builds:

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specializtion - 5

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Relentless Strikes - 1
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Adds 60% chance of adding a combo point when I Finish, and a 20% per combo point of gaining 25 Energy when I Finish. Useful for starting those next combos, although it comes at the cost of Imp. Slice and Dice and Blade Fury.

***OR***

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specializtion - 5

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5
Camouflage - 5
Ghostly Strike - 1

Focus on added Stealth, and vastly improved Dodging ability via Ghostly Strike. Useful as an "Oh no!" ability, or just as a cheap combo-adder that doubles as a defensive bonus. Also allows up to 85% movement speed while Stealthed, thus making scouting faster and easier. (Note: If combined with Imp. Vanish, movement speed would be increased to 105% while Stealthed, unless multiplicative.)

***OR***

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Riposte - 1
Dagger Specializtion - 5
Blade Fury - 1

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Relentless Strikes - 1
Improved Expose Armor - 3
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Focus on crippling the enemy via disarm (Riposte; also good, VERY cheap damage adder that can be used very often), Expose Armor (+45% of 1700 at Rank 5, 5-point combo Finisher, equals out to an extra 765 armor loss, for a total of almost 1500 less armor), and improved combo point / energy generation via Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes. Still fits the overall theme of my original build while rounding out his abilities some, although at the expense of focus in Poison.

I kinda like the last two builds, even though they cost me in Poison (and the second one has potentially 2 wasted points: Riposte and Blade Fury). Plenty of room for future builds in the Rogue Talent trees. In fact, having delved this much into the class (and to think, I was merely doing this as an amusing experiment just to prove a point to myself and to have some fun with something different), I may have to do a guide on Rogues, their Talents, and potential Rogue builds. :)

Well, this has turned into a huge post, unexpectedly I might add. But I hope it was worth the read! Again, I'll keep you posted on my progress.

P.S. - 14.19% Critical Strike rate, 24.34% Dodge rate, 4.96% Parry rate, with 631 Health, 91 (60+31) Agility, and 120 Attack Rating (melee; 115 Ranged). 23.0 and 11.5 DPS main-hand / off-hand (Speed: 1.70), 25.0 DPS ranged (Speed: 2.10). Instant Poison deals 19 - 25 Nature Damage per proc, at Rank 1. Rank 2 coming at level 28 (about 5% from level 25), increasing to 30 - 38 Nature Damage.