07-29-2004, 04:38 AM
You know it's statements like this that really bother me. The holier-than-thou unsupported almost puritanical obsession with the rightness and wrongness of other people's activities.
What part didn't I back up? Or did you just read that and ignore the rest of my post. Fact is that you took my arguments and applied them way past the logical extreme. My opposition to hacked items in no way boxes me into opposing all trading. My opposition to trading for/buying items that are almost certainly duped in no way boxes me into opposing all items I do not know irrefutably are 100% legit. That argument made no mention of, and had no direct bearing on the right and wrong of anyone's activities. My point was that you can't box me into opposing ALL trading simply because I'm opposed to buying/trading for items that are most probably duped/hacked/botted.
My experience with retailers, both on the 'net and in the physical world is that they generally don't want to cheat me because they want me to come back for more. So the reasonable expectation here is that I should expect for-profit sites to sell legit items unless I have information to the contrary.
If you wish to wallow in that sort of ignorance, that's your choice. Fact is, it would take you all of 10 seconds to discover how wrong you are. Go to some of the more commonly spammed sites that sell items. Many now include tips on how to avoid having your items deleted. Many sell elite set pieces and runewords alongside items that clearly could not have been found by any legit means. Other than that, even rudimentary number crunching will tell you that there's no way legitimate means could support the number of items moved through these sites.
I know that counterfeit "real" money exists, but I do not run chemical tests on the change handed to me at the grocery store. Common sense has told me to accept such things at face value.
Interesting. In one post you've attempted to box me into opposing ALL item trading, and now you essentially tell me that if I don't KNOW an item is illegitimate, it's fine to accept it at face value.
See, if someone handed you a bill that, say, had the hollograms removed, I doubt you'd accept it at face value. If you suddenly heard of a massive influx of fake 20 dollar bills in your area, I suspect you'd start looking a little closer at money being handed to you. Or would you simply accept that, since you never saw the guy photocopying the bills, they MUST be real?
So then the crux of your argument seems to be that (1) everyone should assume that ALL (or so nearly all as not to make a difference) items of sufficiently high level are fake. (2)We should assume this then because we know that fakes exist, and because you assure us that some (or even many) of these fakes have been sold and are available for sale as "real". (3)Because there are so many fakes, we shouldn't even discuss the acquisition or use of such items. (4)And, oh yes, anyone who actually has one is part of the problem and CERTAINLY shouldn't sell it or trade it.
(1) There are many more duped runes than legit runes on the realms. Did you have your head in the ground during the last few dupe crazes the realms have experienced?
(2) As previously dealt with -- the numbers prove me right. These sites could not possibly acquire as much legitimate stock as they move.
(3) You may consider the aquisition of such items all you want. However, you must accept that if you trade for it, it's almost certainly duped/botted/hacked. If you buy it, you must accept the same, AND you must accept you are handing money directly to those responsable (directly or indirectly) for those hacks/bots/dupes. (NB: tell me that those sites do employ spam bots -- but never any pindle-bots or meph-bots for their items. Go ahead -- convince me of that!)
(4) As with most markets, this one is drive by purchaser, not the seller. That's why you have to accept some responsability for the hacks/dupes/bots on the realms if you purchase items online! As a consumer, you have enormous power. If everyone stopped buying items from online sites, cold turkey, no matter what the prices or items available, how long do you think they'd stay open?
You can't hide behind ignorance here, because these sites barely make any effort to conceal the types of items they sell. Those are YOUR dollars driving the next realm dupe break out.
gekko
What part didn't I back up? Or did you just read that and ignore the rest of my post. Fact is that you took my arguments and applied them way past the logical extreme. My opposition to hacked items in no way boxes me into opposing all trading. My opposition to trading for/buying items that are almost certainly duped in no way boxes me into opposing all items I do not know irrefutably are 100% legit. That argument made no mention of, and had no direct bearing on the right and wrong of anyone's activities. My point was that you can't box me into opposing ALL trading simply because I'm opposed to buying/trading for items that are most probably duped/hacked/botted.
My experience with retailers, both on the 'net and in the physical world is that they generally don't want to cheat me because they want me to come back for more. So the reasonable expectation here is that I should expect for-profit sites to sell legit items unless I have information to the contrary.
If you wish to wallow in that sort of ignorance, that's your choice. Fact is, it would take you all of 10 seconds to discover how wrong you are. Go to some of the more commonly spammed sites that sell items. Many now include tips on how to avoid having your items deleted. Many sell elite set pieces and runewords alongside items that clearly could not have been found by any legit means. Other than that, even rudimentary number crunching will tell you that there's no way legitimate means could support the number of items moved through these sites.
I know that counterfeit "real" money exists, but I do not run chemical tests on the change handed to me at the grocery store. Common sense has told me to accept such things at face value.
Interesting. In one post you've attempted to box me into opposing ALL item trading, and now you essentially tell me that if I don't KNOW an item is illegitimate, it's fine to accept it at face value.
See, if someone handed you a bill that, say, had the hollograms removed, I doubt you'd accept it at face value. If you suddenly heard of a massive influx of fake 20 dollar bills in your area, I suspect you'd start looking a little closer at money being handed to you. Or would you simply accept that, since you never saw the guy photocopying the bills, they MUST be real?
So then the crux of your argument seems to be that (1) everyone should assume that ALL (or so nearly all as not to make a difference) items of sufficiently high level are fake. (2)We should assume this then because we know that fakes exist, and because you assure us that some (or even many) of these fakes have been sold and are available for sale as "real". (3)Because there are so many fakes, we shouldn't even discuss the acquisition or use of such items. (4)And, oh yes, anyone who actually has one is part of the problem and CERTAINLY shouldn't sell it or trade it.
(1) There are many more duped runes than legit runes on the realms. Did you have your head in the ground during the last few dupe crazes the realms have experienced?
(2) As previously dealt with -- the numbers prove me right. These sites could not possibly acquire as much legitimate stock as they move.
(3) You may consider the aquisition of such items all you want. However, you must accept that if you trade for it, it's almost certainly duped/botted/hacked. If you buy it, you must accept the same, AND you must accept you are handing money directly to those responsable (directly or indirectly) for those hacks/bots/dupes. (NB: tell me that those sites do employ spam bots -- but never any pindle-bots or meph-bots for their items. Go ahead -- convince me of that!)
(4) As with most markets, this one is drive by purchaser, not the seller. That's why you have to accept some responsability for the hacks/dupes/bots on the realms if you purchase items online! As a consumer, you have enormous power. If everyone stopped buying items from online sites, cold turkey, no matter what the prices or items available, how long do you think they'd stay open?
You can't hide behind ignorance here, because these sites barely make any effort to conceal the types of items they sell. Those are YOUR dollars driving the next realm dupe break out.
gekko
"Life is sacred and you are not its steward. You have stewardship over it but you don't own it. You're making a choice to go through this, it's not just happening to you. You're inviting it, and in some ways delighting in it. It's not accidental or coincidental. You're choosing it. You have to realize you've made choices."
-Michael Ventura, "Letters@3AM"
-Michael Ventura, "Letters@3AM"