03-30-2003, 08:11 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2003, 08:28 AM by Skandranon.)
The Juggernaut is indeed a powerful alliance. However, do note that the 80% stat for Russian wins is if both sides go through with it faithfully and never attack the other. I've got a little story about a Juggernaut, actually.
In a game where I played Turkey, I offered a Juggernaut to the Russian, who (presumably cackling with glee) accepted. Of course, I played the Crimean Crusher, A Con-Bul, A Smy-Arm, F Ank-BLA. The Russian, who opened F Sev-Rum, A Mos-StP-, A War-Gal (bounced by Austria) and F StP(sc)-GoB, was caught flatfooted, and naturally begged me not to take Sev. Always talking with everyone, even the freshly stabbed, I negotiated a compromise and played A Arm-Rum, F BLA C A Arm-Rum, A Bul S A Arm-Rum, while the Russian withdrew to Sev and brought A War-Ukr in, letting Austria into Gal. I then informed him that now that I had Rum, I felt safe and we could go on. I built A Con and F Smy and Russia was satisfied.
Spring '02 rolls around. Russia opens his E-mail, sees that he still can't get into Norway. And right below his own orders of A Ukr-War (guarding vs. Austria, even though Austria went to Vie) and F Sev H:
TURKEY
A Bul-Sev
F BLA C A Bul-Sev
A Rum S A Bul-Sev
A Con-Bul
F Smy-AEG
He screamed, he yelled, he sent a mostly unprintable message. I ignored it and asked him if he'd like support to Gal. I told him that now that he no longer had a southern fleet, I felt safe. He called me a dirty lying bastard. I told him I was ordering the support to Gal no matter what he said.
He took it.
For the rest of the game we were, if not exactly amicably, allied. I occupied Sev with my F BLA so he wouldn't worry about a stab into MOS, and stormed the Balkans, giving Russia Vie as a kick start. He negotiated aid from England and got Swe and Den, picked up Ber and Mun two turns later, then built F StP(nc) and stabbed England for Norway and Kiel, as part of a coordinated attack with France. Then England took Denmark back and stole Sweden, with Russia's fleets out of position to get it back. While they were wrangling over Scandinavia I finished off Italy and threw a lifeline to England. France was too far out of position (on the British Isles!) to counter, and so Marseilles, Spain and Portugal went up on the SC list as #15, #16, and #17. Russia was still throwing units at Sweden and Denmark when I stabbed him and took Vie for #18.
Russia did end up in second place, though. He had 8 centres, and would have had 11 if not for England stopping his drive for Holland and then taking Denmark and Sweden. However, he was unmistakably the junior partner. I probably wouldn't have been able to get away with it if England had decided to let Russia burn in the early game, but when England accepted Russia's help and offered four centres, Russia had enough to distract it and be my buffer long enough for me to drive through Italy and Austria. It was helped somewhat by the fact that neither of them could figure out whether I was allied to Russia or not and got into a scrap in the meantime. By the time Austria got himself untangled from Venice to try for a unified defence, I was in Trieste, the Adriatic, the Aegean, and Eastern Med.
In summary: if you want a Juggernaut to work for you, get Rum by hook or by crook at the least, and at least make him hold an army in Sev if you can't get it. (Fleets built in Sevastopol are the classic Juggernaut stab). And stay in charge. I was convincing England to let Russia help him, basically giving Russia enough success to keep him interested while not allowing him enough to be a threat. It isn't easy. But it's doable.
I have another, much shorter story about a Juggernaut. I was Turkey and it was my second e-mail game. Russia offered a Juggernaut. I was a good little ally and didn't stab him. In a season where he had two builds and I had none, he built F Sev, A Mos and convoyed to Constantinople in the Fall. Ankara and Smyrna fell in the next year and it was game over for me.
In your game, you have a GOLDEN situation for Turkey - a Russia involved in the North, Austria and Italy at each other's throats. Absolutely convoy Constantinople to Rumania with support. Austria, if wise, will be going for Greece and supporting himself in. If he's stupid, he'll go into Trieste with two supports (the Italian army will simply retreat to Vienna!) Either way he won't dispute Rum. Then you can take Sevastopol with your fleet and offer truce. Austria and Italy are fighting it out and so you can just roll up the Balkans.
Diplomatically, it might not be a bad idea to have Germany give Russia the build on the condition that Russia builds F StP(nc) and helps Germany against England. The openings of the English and French are clearly against Germany (and you can point that out, several times). Then, when you offer truce after taking Sev, Russia might see it as a front he doesn't need to worry about, especially with the promise of more builds in the North. I think it's important to note that what you don't want is the situation in the north sorting itself out quickly. You want fighting, lots of it, and you want Russia heavily committed, because it lets you pick up the scraps of the Austro-Italian war. Unfortunately, due to Russia's horrendous opening, he may want to get his piece of Germany, which means that the north will sort itself out rather quicker than you'd like.
Turkey's often a dead-end country, stuck on four or five units for most of the game. But you've got a chance to really let Turkey shine :)
EDIT: Typo hunt!
In a game where I played Turkey, I offered a Juggernaut to the Russian, who (presumably cackling with glee) accepted. Of course, I played the Crimean Crusher, A Con-Bul, A Smy-Arm, F Ank-BLA. The Russian, who opened F Sev-Rum, A Mos-StP-, A War-Gal (bounced by Austria) and F StP(sc)-GoB, was caught flatfooted, and naturally begged me not to take Sev. Always talking with everyone, even the freshly stabbed, I negotiated a compromise and played A Arm-Rum, F BLA C A Arm-Rum, A Bul S A Arm-Rum, while the Russian withdrew to Sev and brought A War-Ukr in, letting Austria into Gal. I then informed him that now that I had Rum, I felt safe and we could go on. I built A Con and F Smy and Russia was satisfied.
Spring '02 rolls around. Russia opens his E-mail, sees that he still can't get into Norway. And right below his own orders of A Ukr-War (guarding vs. Austria, even though Austria went to Vie) and F Sev H:
TURKEY
A Bul-Sev
F BLA C A Bul-Sev
A Rum S A Bul-Sev
A Con-Bul
F Smy-AEG
He screamed, he yelled, he sent a mostly unprintable message. I ignored it and asked him if he'd like support to Gal. I told him that now that he no longer had a southern fleet, I felt safe. He called me a dirty lying bastard. I told him I was ordering the support to Gal no matter what he said.
He took it.
For the rest of the game we were, if not exactly amicably, allied. I occupied Sev with my F BLA so he wouldn't worry about a stab into MOS, and stormed the Balkans, giving Russia Vie as a kick start. He negotiated aid from England and got Swe and Den, picked up Ber and Mun two turns later, then built F StP(nc) and stabbed England for Norway and Kiel, as part of a coordinated attack with France. Then England took Denmark back and stole Sweden, with Russia's fleets out of position to get it back. While they were wrangling over Scandinavia I finished off Italy and threw a lifeline to England. France was too far out of position (on the British Isles!) to counter, and so Marseilles, Spain and Portugal went up on the SC list as #15, #16, and #17. Russia was still throwing units at Sweden and Denmark when I stabbed him and took Vie for #18.
Russia did end up in second place, though. He had 8 centres, and would have had 11 if not for England stopping his drive for Holland and then taking Denmark and Sweden. However, he was unmistakably the junior partner. I probably wouldn't have been able to get away with it if England had decided to let Russia burn in the early game, but when England accepted Russia's help and offered four centres, Russia had enough to distract it and be my buffer long enough for me to drive through Italy and Austria. It was helped somewhat by the fact that neither of them could figure out whether I was allied to Russia or not and got into a scrap in the meantime. By the time Austria got himself untangled from Venice to try for a unified defence, I was in Trieste, the Adriatic, the Aegean, and Eastern Med.
In summary: if you want a Juggernaut to work for you, get Rum by hook or by crook at the least, and at least make him hold an army in Sev if you can't get it. (Fleets built in Sevastopol are the classic Juggernaut stab). And stay in charge. I was convincing England to let Russia help him, basically giving Russia enough success to keep him interested while not allowing him enough to be a threat. It isn't easy. But it's doable.
I have another, much shorter story about a Juggernaut. I was Turkey and it was my second e-mail game. Russia offered a Juggernaut. I was a good little ally and didn't stab him. In a season where he had two builds and I had none, he built F Sev, A Mos and convoyed to Constantinople in the Fall. Ankara and Smyrna fell in the next year and it was game over for me.
In your game, you have a GOLDEN situation for Turkey - a Russia involved in the North, Austria and Italy at each other's throats. Absolutely convoy Constantinople to Rumania with support. Austria, if wise, will be going for Greece and supporting himself in. If he's stupid, he'll go into Trieste with two supports (the Italian army will simply retreat to Vienna!) Either way he won't dispute Rum. Then you can take Sevastopol with your fleet and offer truce. Austria and Italy are fighting it out and so you can just roll up the Balkans.
Diplomatically, it might not be a bad idea to have Germany give Russia the build on the condition that Russia builds F StP(nc) and helps Germany against England. The openings of the English and French are clearly against Germany (and you can point that out, several times). Then, when you offer truce after taking Sev, Russia might see it as a front he doesn't need to worry about, especially with the promise of more builds in the North. I think it's important to note that what you don't want is the situation in the north sorting itself out quickly. You want fighting, lots of it, and you want Russia heavily committed, because it lets you pick up the scraps of the Austro-Italian war. Unfortunately, due to Russia's horrendous opening, he may want to get his piece of Germany, which means that the north will sort itself out rather quicker than you'd like.
Turkey's often a dead-end country, stuck on four or five units for most of the game. But you've got a chance to really let Turkey shine :)
EDIT: Typo hunt!