02-27-2004, 07:29 PM
The Socratian approach as you describe it breaks on an assupmtion. The assumption that reason will lead one to virtue is not valid universally, but holds true only to those who seek via reason the answers to their problems. Those who do not put forth the effort to learn or use reason are automatically cut out. That detracts, does it not, from the ability to advance virtue on a macro scale?
Reasoning can, when approached from certain min-max outcomes based models, result in actions and decisions that stamp on your fellow citizens. That strikes me as non virtuous. I suggest the decisions based on layoffs rather than recapitalization in any number of factory towns would pass Socratian muster as being well reasoned decisions which trample the human element. Sacrifice is somehow ignored, sacrifice on the part of shareholders for short term with a long term payoff, yet giving and sacrifice are powerful forces for creating virtue.
The love and sacrifice model, which Socrates would probably find as virtuous attributes, the Christian selflessness model, is a model for exercising personal power that applies from most wretched to most exalted.
Heaven and Hell are irrelevant to this conversation.
I'll suggest a way to view that polarity: (Suggested to me by a devout Cumberland Presbyterian)
"Heaven is being "with God" and Hell is "being not with God." They are spiritual loci, not physical loci.
The central message of the teachings of Jesus, at least the message that I find central, is that of selflessness, self sacrifice on behalf of your fellow man, your family, your neighbors, even your enemies, and the focus on finding the path to Salvation (which I translate as true inner peace and synonymous to "with God"). I accept that there will be Christians who would find such characterizations heretical.
When you give, you exercise positive power, regardless of the size of the gift. Giving without strings is a pure exercise in adding to the "goodness in the world" and diametrically opposed to taking, to adding to the hate and discontent in the world. Your Socrates' reliance on pure reason to find virtue falls short in the spiritual and moral realm, which is where virtue naturally resides.
Whether the path to "heaven" or "hell" is by works, by faith, or by a little of both, (or by blind luck) the process and journey undertaken is what takes you there. I'd say reason is an enabler, see the reasoning the Jesus uses in Scripture, rather than the sole mechanism for finding virtue.
Reasoning can, when approached from certain min-max outcomes based models, result in actions and decisions that stamp on your fellow citizens. That strikes me as non virtuous. I suggest the decisions based on layoffs rather than recapitalization in any number of factory towns would pass Socratian muster as being well reasoned decisions which trample the human element. Sacrifice is somehow ignored, sacrifice on the part of shareholders for short term with a long term payoff, yet giving and sacrifice are powerful forces for creating virtue.
The love and sacrifice model, which Socrates would probably find as virtuous attributes, the Christian selflessness model, is a model for exercising personal power that applies from most wretched to most exalted.
Heaven and Hell are irrelevant to this conversation.
I'll suggest a way to view that polarity: (Suggested to me by a devout Cumberland Presbyterian)
"Heaven is being "with God" and Hell is "being not with God." They are spiritual loci, not physical loci.
The central message of the teachings of Jesus, at least the message that I find central, is that of selflessness, self sacrifice on behalf of your fellow man, your family, your neighbors, even your enemies, and the focus on finding the path to Salvation (which I translate as true inner peace and synonymous to "with God"). I accept that there will be Christians who would find such characterizations heretical.
When you give, you exercise positive power, regardless of the size of the gift. Giving without strings is a pure exercise in adding to the "goodness in the world" and diametrically opposed to taking, to adding to the hate and discontent in the world. Your Socrates' reliance on pure reason to find virtue falls short in the spiritual and moral realm, which is where virtue naturally resides.
Whether the path to "heaven" or "hell" is by works, by faith, or by a little of both, (or by blind luck) the process and journey undertaken is what takes you there. I'd say reason is an enabler, see the reasoning the Jesus uses in Scripture, rather than the sole mechanism for finding virtue.
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete