03-11-2003, 10:29 PM
Occhidiangela,Mar 11 2003, 06:31 PM Wrote:You will have noticed that Saudi Arabia and Israel have NOT reached a mutually acceptable agreement. Not every offer is acceptable, that is what the word negotiations refer to. Merely to have made an offer. regardless of its merits, does not constitute a valid basis for an agreement. It takes two to tango.And the trap goes snapsnap.
If you had known what was offered by Saudi Arabia (backed by the entire Arab League + PA), and what was allegedly offered by Barak-Clinton, you would've known how silly your statement is.
Arafat, as much as I despise him, did get one thing right. His position as of late is exactly in accordance with UN resolutions.
And here we come to the crux of the issue. You can't make arguments on Middle East based on US media reportings. You really have to make an effort to research it yourself, and above all not limit yourself to the pro-Israeli camp. Yet, in my previous post I said this discussion is futile on the internet, because there is no way for me to convince you here. And would I say that I most likely posses far superior knowledge of the Middle East, will just make you accuse me of arrogance or act defensive, so I won't. Just be aware, that you're not debating this with a layman who has read an article or two on Le Monde or Newsweek. I don't think you're completely unfamiliar with the situation either, I do think however, that you've been grossly manipulated by the media in your country. (or even language, as the Oz media doesn't seem any better, and in the UK only BBC seems to still report without a huge agenda hanging from their back..and I'm not talking just about the ME.)
Quote:Egypt and Israel have indeed reached a mutually acceptable arrangement. I wonder if Israel and Syria ever will
You stated Egypt was the onlyone with whom Israel had a mutualy accepted arrangement. I gave you the SA plan as a counter, to show you, that Israel is as much, if not more, to blame for the situation.
Since you now illuminate Syria, maybe I was wrong in my guess, that you simply forgot another country Israel has come to an agreement. Namely Jordan.
Quote:The Palestinians are not morally in the right, they are combatants.
Hmm, are you digging yourself the proverbial grave here? Palestinians are a civilian people trying to live under circumstances under which most of us would rebel. Palestinians are not fighting IDF troops or blowing themselves up. A handful of extremists are.
Yet again, go to West Bank. Better live there for 6 months without your comfy US passport.
Quote:Check to newspaper for about the last 20 years.
US newspaper? I've no doubt you're mostly correct. Try a French, German or Scand newspaper and you will read a completely different story. Or just switch your channel to BBC News from time to time. I didn't say US media and society is staunchly pro-Israeli just to air my gums or exercise my fingers.
Quote:You will note that the more liberal Prime Ministers, who trusted in the good faith of the Palestinians, have shown that their trust was ill earned.
The only Israeli PM who (judging by their actions) really might've wanted to make a deal that did not go all out to rip-off the Palestinians was shot by a Jewish extremist. Mention Barak, and I'll help you dig that pit for yourself. ;)
Quote:West Bank. Occupied in 1967 for the simple reason of national survival.
Survival from what? There be Dragons east of the West Bank? As you yourself pointed out in the previous page, the Arabs haven't shown themselves to be great warriors of late. Israel is militarily stronger than all potential hostiles combined.
Quote:When I was last in Jerusalem, I noted how armed patrols were everywhere. Gee, I wonder why?
Heeheehee. Three words. West Bank, go!
Quote:Until such time as the UN decrees that Israel is not a legitimate nationstate, it is the Paletsinians who are in the wrong to use violence to achieve their ends.
Here you come from a point of total hypocrisy spoonfed to you by the US media.
Israel is currently in violation of dozens of UN resolutions.
Iraq is in violation of a couple such.
Yet who do you want to go to war against?
You should know better than to bring in the UN card, as that position as maintained by the US in recent times is totally undefensible. At least be honest and say, that UN is relevant only when it's interests and resolutions coincide with your views.
Quote:LOL. Let's see, 1948, Israel attacked. 1956 Israel attacked 1967, Israel preemptive strike versus Arab Mobilization 1973? Israel attacked.
First of all Israeli DOI was not sanctioned by the UN at the time. It was premature. So for one, there's your first move of aggression in the area. Second, 1967 was plain and simple Israeli attack. Mobilization or no, does not give you carte blanche to attack. Provocations are common in politics, yet such does not give you a casus belli according to international laws. If Israel wished, it could've pursued other avenues instead of going on the offensive. Avenues whch would've been legit and within international laws.
Quote:Meanwhile, since 1973, a series of steps have been implemented that increases Palestinians goals of self determination, but you see, THEY don't want to be team players.
Yet they did in the spring of 2002, and it was Israel which refused to play along. Israel refuses to follow international law, it constantly violates UN resolutions, it treats Palestine civilians worse than animals; yet your sympathies are on their side.
And it all boils down to US media. Have you ever watched a live UN discussion on CNN? Have you then watched the edited versions the air later, and the soundbytes the repeatedly broadcast for the next 48 hours, and which they then shove don your throat as "historical truth"? Just couple days ago, I had an opportunity to yet again witness this.
Go live in the West Bank, experience the constant suffering and humiliation that the Israeli Government has imposed on ordinary Palestinian people, maybe then you will question a bit what you've been taught to believe.
I wait with anticipation that you declare me a staunch anti-semite just as your pal Elie Wiesel told you to. ;)
The best thing really is to just let it be. I won't die with you believing what you believe, and I would dare to guess your survival does not depend on my opinions either. So how about we shake hands and call each other zionist-dupe/anti-semite while coughing? ;)