09-27-2003, 07:25 PM
Some miscellaneous comments from different posts. Along the line of 'in the "interests of science", Devil's advocate, push and pull, etc., etc.'
What needs to be looked at here are the relative "threat" levels involved. I am unsure on the players themselves because I have not actually sat down to test it, but the players appear to be a 9 or 10 (I expect that it will be 10 when it actually does get looked up). Here is a list of some of the other threat values as they pertain to this discussion.
10 rogue mercenary
11 other mercenaries
10 necroskeletons and necro mages
11 necro golems
01 Bone Wall and Bone Prisons
11 valkyrie
14 dopplezon (decoy)
10 druid summoned wolves
11 Grizzly
08 druid spirits
00 druid vines
11 shadowwarrior/shadowmaster
I have regularly been able to use the golems to draw off the attention of the monsters away from my skeletons with this technique. It can work somewhat well against the prime evils if the golem has any lasting power. So you should be able to use casting a clay golem to good effect, even after doing a teleport if needed.
Look for some of the other discussions on these forums concerning the druid attack speeds for more details on how to look at this.
Yes an AoE attack can be devastating to a tightly bunched group. That is why I like a quickly cast Clay Golem to provide short distractions and give the army some time to regenerate. This can even work against the prime evils in the middle of the combat due the golems higher threat level.
The mass area poison attacks could pose some problem to the skeletons. They are not poison immune so the effect would temporarily stop their regeneration while damaging them. They would then be more susceptible to being taken out by other attacks. Any attack that can hit several players together simultaneously could be a problem if the damage levels are high enough (Gloam attacks for one, death explosions from some boss types, etc.).
From some of the other responses in this thread it looks like some need to reference this spreadsheet on the necro skeletons (made by SerraAngel)
http://home1.tiscalinet.de/shadowgate/imag...ySerraAngel.xls
You can check to see just what the stats of the skeletons are with different levels of SM and RS. Note that there is a listing showing the actual HP of the skeletons versus what the game will erroneously display on the skill description. A pure investment in Raise Skeleton that some are recommending may not really be the ideal route to go.
As some have pointed out the real problem with hitting is similar to that of the other classes that are based on actually hitting their target (typical melee build). This is the clvl-mlvl factor in the to-hit equation. If the clvl is too far below the mlvl then it may be too hard to make up the difference with +AR/+AR% no matter what you do. For the purposes of this the skeletons are the level of the caster at the time that they are created. A minor point to consider at the beginning to the characters leveling in the game.
Snorelax:
The problem is just what is the bug? The actual life of the skeletons or the displayed value on the skill description. Off hand the skill description is bugged because it is using the wrong formula for what to display. But that is more of a matter of what the design team had intended. The final solution should probably be some where in between along with a fix of the formula for doing the display. The regeneration rate itself does not appear to be a bug because it is the same as most of the hireables and some of the other pets (DamageRegen=4). Variations on this are the act5 mercs (DamageRegen=10), Grizzly (DamageRegen=5), valkyrie (DamageRegen=12), decoy (DamageRegen=15). So their value for regenerating is not all that out of place. The HP that the skeletons can get to in normal difficulty and the early part of the game is somewhat out of place, but starts leveling out by hell difficulty. Lowering it too much overall would probably stop the build even being functional in hell difficulty.
Prayer would be doubtful in its use after about normal difficulty. A hell skeleton with SM=20, RS=20 would have a life=1919. The regeneration rate would result in 1.87 life per frame recovery or 93.7 life every 2 seconds (pulse period). A level 20 Prayer would only be 25 points per pulse; about 1/4 the amount. Better to get a merc that can either provide a different type of damage (cold or lightning IW) or enhance the damage or to-hit values of the skeletons. Another possibility might be thorns, but that may represent too much of slow down for what Crystalion is looking for.
Quote:?#2: when one teleports all of one's army to a single point they stay in place to attack an in-range monster, thus until you move, you are overlapped with your army... does the "threat" level or locational stacking of your army result in poor enemy AI choices for which of your army/you for them to attack?
What needs to be looked at here are the relative "threat" levels involved. I am unsure on the players themselves because I have not actually sat down to test it, but the players appear to be a 9 or 10 (I expect that it will be 10 when it actually does get looked up). Here is a list of some of the other threat values as they pertain to this discussion.
10 rogue mercenary
11 other mercenaries
10 necroskeletons and necro mages
11 necro golems
01 Bone Wall and Bone Prisons
11 valkyrie
14 dopplezon (decoy)
10 druid summoned wolves
11 Grizzly
08 druid spirits
00 druid vines
11 shadowwarrior/shadowmaster
I have regularly been able to use the golems to draw off the attention of the monsters away from my skeletons with this technique. It can work somewhat well against the prime evils if the golem has any lasting power. So you should be able to use casting a clay golem to good effect, even after doing a teleport if needed.
Quote:?#5: apparently an act2 merc jabs twice, with the timing of the second part of the jab being independent of the weapon speed, but the delay in getting the first part of the jab being affected? Certainly, upon teleport, it is good to have our merc get in the first blow (compared to a hopefully delayed response from the target monster).They use two type of attack. The default is a 'normal' attack (A1) which is 16 frames long with the hit occurring on the 12th frame (normal AnimationSpeed of 256). The Jab attack uses a sequenced animation that can be found in monseq.txt as the sequence seq_act2guardjab. This is 14 frames long and the hits will occur on the 6th and 10th frames. The AnimationSpeed should also be at the normal rate and WSM and IAS modifiers should adjust these in the same manner that they would a normal type of attack as for when they will actually end up occurring at.
Look for some of the other discussions on these forums concerning the druid attack speeds for more details on how to look at this.
Quote:?#9: I know that Act Bosses get a bonus vs. my army and that 3 Prime Evils have AoE attacks... are they likely to hit *all* of my concentrated force at once (and poof!)? (One "solution" to this is to wait until the boss is engaged in an action, teleport you and your army next to him, then run around to his other side so his attacks hit you (ouch ouch) but not your army).
Yes an AoE attack can be devastating to a tightly bunched group. That is why I like a quickly cast Clay Golem to provide short distractions and give the army some time to regenerate. This can even work against the prime evils in the middle of the combat due the golems higher threat level.
Quote:?#10: Dim Vision will stop inferno dudes (unless they are immune to DV) from their new uber v1.10 fire breath, etc. etc. Aside from these (DVable) cases, are there "normal" monsters to be wary of that have a special attack that could zap my whole stack effectively?
The mass area poison attacks could pose some problem to the skeletons. They are not poison immune so the effect would temporarily stop their regeneration while damaging them. They would then be more susceptible to being taken out by other attacks. Any attack that can hit several players together simultaneously could be a problem if the damage levels are high enough (Gloam attacks for one, death explosions from some boss types, etc.).
Quote:... So, if v1.10s is properly balanced and goes to release that way, how much skill do I need in skel mastery and skelies to get decent damage out of them, and is their to-hit good enough that a Might merc is a better idea overall anyway?
From some of the other responses in this thread it looks like some need to reference this spreadsheet on the necro skeletons (made by SerraAngel)
http://home1.tiscalinet.de/shadowgate/imag...ySerraAngel.xls
You can check to see just what the stats of the skeletons are with different levels of SM and RS. Note that there is a listing showing the actual HP of the skeletons versus what the game will erroneously display on the skill description. A pure investment in Raise Skeleton that some are recommending may not really be the ideal route to go.
As some have pointed out the real problem with hitting is similar to that of the other classes that are based on actually hitting their target (typical melee build). This is the clvl-mlvl factor in the to-hit equation. If the clvl is too far below the mlvl then it may be too hard to make up the difference with +AR/+AR% no matter what you do. For the purposes of this the skeletons are the level of the caster at the time that they are created. A minor point to consider at the beginning to the characters leveling in the game.
Snorelax:
Quote:...Plus, mercs are ITD so the aura wouldn't help one of your hardest hitting minions.People are disremembering what Jarulf had noted about this. The mercs are not ITD. What is going on is the that the game code has a mercenary skipping the code section that applies the ITD effect when processing the mercs chance to hit. It is useless to give a mercenary an ITD item because the game would skip applying the effect for them at all (this is as of the v1.08 game engine and good chance that it has not been fixed since then either). Took me some digging through old notes to see where this mistake must have come from.
Quote:Plus, hirelings are ITD so -monster def wouldn't help them at all.No, see the comment above. The hireling are very dependent on the to-hit chance formula just as the monsters are.
Quote:#9: There are three attacks I can think of offhand that would be problematic. Baal's ice wedge and fire ring and Diablo's ring of fire. With the current (bugged?) skeleton regen rates, they can survive this quite easily. If the regen rates are changed (fixed?) however, these attacks may become problematic
The problem is just what is the bug? The actual life of the skeletons or the displayed value on the skill description. Off hand the skill description is bugged because it is using the wrong formula for what to display. But that is more of a matter of what the design team had intended. The final solution should probably be some where in between along with a fix of the formula for doing the display. The regeneration rate itself does not appear to be a bug because it is the same as most of the hireables and some of the other pets (DamageRegen=4). Variations on this are the act5 mercs (DamageRegen=10), Grizzly (DamageRegen=5), valkyrie (DamageRegen=12), decoy (DamageRegen=15). So their value for regenerating is not all that out of place. The HP that the skeletons can get to in normal difficulty and the early part of the game is somewhat out of place, but starts leveling out by hell difficulty. Lowering it too much overall would probably stop the build even being functional in hell difficulty.
Quote:#12: Remember that in 1.10 (at the moment, could change), RS is vastly superior to Skeleton Mastery. Maxing RS and then SM would be the best path if you have the points.That can depend on what you really need. Use the calculator that I listed above to compare what you will get with 21 split between the two skills for a sampling of what the results are. SM=20, RS=1 will yield a damage of 41-42 with only 1 skeleton and life=181. SM=1, RS=20 will give 41-43 damage with 8 skeletons and a life=275. SM=10, RS=11 will give 37-39 damage with 5 skeletons and a life=505. It will depend on if numbers are more important than the durability of the skeletons themselves. Since Crystalion was planning on using Enchant to help boost the damage a lot, the actual damage that they do can be moot, but having to arrange to keep reapplying it to skeletons that do not survive long could pose some problems.
Quote:My recollection is that charges on a staff of teleport are much cheaper than that to repair (checked: v1.10s repair of v1.09 staff is 2110 gold per charge of level 2 teleport--I don't recall and can't easily test what that was in v1.09).The base parameters for this (staff cost, cost mult and cost add of teleport skill) are all still the same, so the cost should still be the same.
Quote:The rogue mercs don't have any AR, so I guess I assumed all mercs were ITD as it'd be weird if they just made them ITD and the town guards have to make an AR check. Plus it wouldn't be the first time Blizzard had a column in the MPQ files that turned out to not do anything.The AR parameters for the mercs are in hireling.txt not the monstats.txt file. It is calculated from the AR and AR/Lvl columns. They can get quite a bit from this. They should also be getting some from their dexterity rating also.
...snip...
Also checked with an Act I merc. They have no listed AR, yet they don't seem to ignore target defense either. Not really sure how their to-hit is determined then.
Quote:For example, surely a level 99 Necro raising a level 99 skelie with only 1 pt in SM and RS doesn't get a skelie with only 30 AR? I rather suspect that such a skelie is scaled by the game code to have baseline stats reflecting being level 99 and the skills.txt stuff is a bonus (not an override). I suppose I'll get around to a -act5 Necro and do a rough PvP sanity check on this sometime soon.No scaling like you are describing, the noRatio=1 parameter is for stopping this. The AR would be low. The calculator is missing the inclusion of the base AR from the monstats.txt file, but is not much (+5/+4/+6 in norm/NM/hell). The biggest help in this case would be that the skeleton is level 99 as far as the to-hit equation is concerned. That can help a lot against lower level opponents.
Quote:...Perhaps prayer might be a better choice, as it would extend the life of your army, reducing the number of corpses you need to raise skeletons. Fewer corpses for skeletons means more corpses for corpse explosion. Now that the pulses come much faster, prayer might make a bigger difference, especially if skeleton life regeneration is greatly reduced in the final version of 1.10.
Prayer would be doubtful in its use after about normal difficulty. A hell skeleton with SM=20, RS=20 would have a life=1919. The regeneration rate would result in 1.87 life per frame recovery or 93.7 life every 2 seconds (pulse period). A level 20 Prayer would only be 25 points per pulse; about 1/4 the amount. Better to get a merc that can either provide a different type of damage (cold or lightning IW) or enhance the damage or to-hit values of the skeletons. Another possibility might be thorns, but that may represent too much of slow down for what Crystalion is looking for.