03-05-2003, 09:14 PM
"Bad form is it? Folks who wish to America bash may well be repaid in kind. But America bashing is not bad form? Nice double standard."
Israel is a state. The Jews are not.
America is a state. Americans are not.
"Bashing" America is perfectly fair game. As is "bashing" Israel. Or Iraq. Or Egypt. Or Burkina Faso, or Andorra, or French Guiana. They are states. They are responsible for their own actions. It is in the public arena, and open to criticism, even total disapproval. Entire races of people, on the other hand, who are hated by racists as individuals for prejudicial reasons, are not.
How is that a double standard? Sounds like two separate standards to me, one for states and one for races. Since one has a tangible existence, and the other is just a theoretical abstraction comprised of vaguely related individuals, I think that's pretty appropriate.
Anti-semitism is old. Very old. And very real. And I admitted that. I just think it's erroneous to believe that this is the basis for the vast majority of criticism of the state of Israel. It's not about the Jews. It's about Israel.
I'm not European or American, but I doubt that lets me off the hook. Except... that the state was created back before I was born. How far back does hypocrisy extend, exactly? To people who never held such a position in the first place? Hypocrisy is for individual people, Occhi, it's not for whole nations throughout history. I'm sure, at some point, one of my ancestors owned slaves, abused women and killed Jews. I'm equally sure this happened in my country. What I know is that it does not apply to me. Hence, I feel fairly confident refuting that I am a hypocrite.
What would be hypocritical, however, would be honestly believing that Israel is in the wrong, yet throwing your support behind it just because your country or ancestors did.
Or are people not allowed to believe things that contradict decisions made by their ancestors or nations?
Jester
Israel is a state. The Jews are not.
America is a state. Americans are not.
"Bashing" America is perfectly fair game. As is "bashing" Israel. Or Iraq. Or Egypt. Or Burkina Faso, or Andorra, or French Guiana. They are states. They are responsible for their own actions. It is in the public arena, and open to criticism, even total disapproval. Entire races of people, on the other hand, who are hated by racists as individuals for prejudicial reasons, are not.
How is that a double standard? Sounds like two separate standards to me, one for states and one for races. Since one has a tangible existence, and the other is just a theoretical abstraction comprised of vaguely related individuals, I think that's pretty appropriate.
Anti-semitism is old. Very old. And very real. And I admitted that. I just think it's erroneous to believe that this is the basis for the vast majority of criticism of the state of Israel. It's not about the Jews. It's about Israel.
I'm not European or American, but I doubt that lets me off the hook. Except... that the state was created back before I was born. How far back does hypocrisy extend, exactly? To people who never held such a position in the first place? Hypocrisy is for individual people, Occhi, it's not for whole nations throughout history. I'm sure, at some point, one of my ancestors owned slaves, abused women and killed Jews. I'm equally sure this happened in my country. What I know is that it does not apply to me. Hence, I feel fairly confident refuting that I am a hypocrite.
What would be hypocritical, however, would be honestly believing that Israel is in the wrong, yet throwing your support behind it just because your country or ancestors did.
Or are people not allowed to believe things that contradict decisions made by their ancestors or nations?
Jester