Article discreditng the thesis that Mao "killed millions of people" in The Great Leap

[FireIceTalon]

So... Lemme-get-this-straight... Somebody living in the hell-hole of El Salvador seeks to escape being victimized by their own countrymen aka. Mara Salvatrucha, so they come to the US to rebuild their lives. But, to you, it is the person offering them money in exchange for labor that is victimizing them? Nay, you said dehumanizing them, and its not the gangsters turning them into human cattle in brothels, or mules running drugs through a deadly gauntlet of jungles and deserts that are to be feared, but "capitalists".

You say I lack perspective, yet this very passage here is the epitome of lacking perspective, so let me add it for you.

Black markets, brothels, and drug cartels ARE all part of and directly a resullt of the capitalist system and neo-colonialism. Whether these things are legal or not, is not the point here. The point is, like endeavors done in 'normal' markets, they are done for profit. Yes, many of these things are and result in terrible human rights violations. However, that doesn't exonerate capitalists who obey the so-called 'rule of law' of bourgeois society from their exploitative relationship with workers, or the attrocities that the 'legitimized' state apparatus makes on their behalf. It is because of their endless pursuit of profits that this entire system came to be and is. You can holler all day about how laws are designed to protect human and civil rights, and that they should be this way or that way - the only thing you will accomplish is spinning your wheels in idealist mud. At the end of the day these things will ALWAYS be secondary to the accumuliation of profits, and in fact, this very process is not only indifferent to human and civil rights but in fact probably encourages these violations - or such underground markets wouldn't exist. Capitalists in the regular markets are every bit to blame for exploitation and human rights violations as those who operate 'illegally' in the underground. The only difference is, the former have an established and organized police and state force to enforce their violent rule for them, whereas the latter operate in such a way as to enforce their rule directly themselves; a pimp who exploits sex workers being the perfect example of this. These underground markets represent capitalism at very arguably its worst, but again, it doesn't absolve 'law abiding' capitalists of their crimes against humanity either. We live in a system that brings out the worst in humanity.

From a pro-capitalist perspective, that is one of of the beauties of the 'rule of law system' - you can hide behind all the attrocities committed by the system that are inextricably tied to what your social and economic existence as a class is predicated upon, THEN, when the everyday mythology you indoctrinate the masses with in the education and media systems is no longer enough, you can just blame it on the State to absolve yourself of all responsbility when shit hits the fan; the very same state that exists to violently enforce your ruling position in society.

The problem though, isn't just capitalists. Privileged and racist white workers that buy into capitalist mythology hook, line, and sinker are just as much to blame.

We have laws defending human and civil rights.

What an insensitive and disgusting blanket statement that completely glosses over the historical attrocities and systemic brutality that Native Americans, blacks and all other non-white persons have and continue to endure in America. Your white privilege is really showing with that statement.

Tell that to the people of Standing Rock in ND, or the families of the countless black and latino men, women and children beaten, harassed, racially profiled, humiliated, and murdered by white police officers, who kill with near impunity, almost on a daily basis. They will most likely look at you like you are crazy, and for good reason.

Oh, wait, they have. In the face of the 1996 Clinton administration "dehumanizing" laws, they have upheld the rights of people to due process, and to petition the government for consideration.

Wait, you mean the same administration that implemented the extremely racist, sexist and anti-worker polices left and right; including The Crime Bill of 1994, the Three Strikes Law, and gutting of welfare that lead to more police surveillance and racial profiling of minority communities, increased mass incarceration (for profit!), and basically criminalized being poor? Policies that would have made any Republican administration grin from ear to ear? THAT adminstration, you mean?

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/02/welfa...verty-dlc/

The Clintons, and so-called liberals in general, are just as much useful idiots as conservative reactionaries are.

Then, you wouldn't be opposed to opening your home, or apartment to whomever wants to flop there. No borders means no occupation problem.

Um, there are more empty houses and apartments here than there is immigrants or homeless people in America, so indeed there is no occupation problem. Once again, the problem isn't immigration but artificial scarcity created by the capitalist system. But that isn't the point I was making anyways. The point is, is that white people are in absolutely no position to complain about immigration WHATSOEVER, not just because of history either, but because their primary objections to immigration (such as stagnant or declining wages) cannot be attributed to immigration in the first place. Their anger and frustration should be directed toward their bosses and the system that creates a boss-worker relationship to begin with, not at workers from other nations.

Unlike you, I'm staying within the current legal system, as flawed or irrelevant as you may want to believe it to be.

And that's part of the problem, is that you only navigate within the current given system without realizing the system itself is rotten to the core. You are like a doctor who wants to treat a cancer patient symptoms, but not the cancer itself, as all bourgeois historians, economists, and social commentators are

Unfortunately for Native Americans, they lost, and/ or were swindled out of the land by the Europeans. I'm not opposed to some equitable, workable justice for them, unless you are suggesting expelling all emigrants and their ilk from the past 400 years, which is pretty unworkable (leading to civil war).

Never said all white people should be deported. My point was, again, that they are in no position to complain about immigration if we look at historical context. Either way, it is pure fantasy to think that a profit driven system, built upon institutionally racist foundations, with more POC blood on its hands than anything else in history, will ever deliver justice and equality to Native Americans or other minorities. One has to be completely out of touch with reality and lack historical perspective to think otherwise. It would have happened long ago if it were possible. Is 500+ years of spilt Native American blood, genocide, slavery and poverty not enough to convince you of this? Capitalism, and its legacy of colonialism and the institutional racist foundations that it is predicated upon, are inseparable.

What about those who were brought here against their will?

You mean like the people in the African Slave trade that were stripped from the very arms of their familes and tribes, to be bought and sold, when white colonists had to find another population to enslave because they wiped out most of the indigenous population?

Unlike you, I deal in the reality of what is and don't partake of unrealistic fantasy, like pure communism, or North America purged of European blood.

No, what is pure fantasy is thinking this rotten system can be reformed in any way to protect and serve those it has historically oppressed, by design, from day ONE. Again, your white privilege speaks loudly here.

You have some very absurd ideas, and this is one of them. I think what you are lacking here is a sense of perspective.

Or maybe, I've just come to face the music, whereas you've yet to. Bottomline is, we simply speak a completely different political language.

There is nothing absurd about the observation of european colonialism. It is just acknowledging the fact europeans came here, wiped out and enslaved various populations in the name of profit and their worldview that they used as justifcation for it - and still use to this day for the continued oppression of these same minorities.

What is absurd however, are perspectives that espouse white privilege cloaked in euphemisms like "private property", "individuality", and the like being written as the only sensible (and therefore, acceptable) perspectives and any other proposed alternative or critique of the given order must be dismissed as absurd. Lest any other viewpoint that is a threat and puts into question the legitimacy of the current system being accepted as an acceptable perspective.

I suggest you should augment your understanding more directly by emigrating to China, or North Korea to work in collective farming for some years to gain an appreciation for the value of individuality, and the ability to market your skills directly to those who might seek them.

It's funny how pro-cappies put so much emphasis on individualism. But even if we play your game and put more emphasis on individualism than collectivism, its still pretty easy to make a reasonable argument that capitalism has about as much concern for 'individuality' as Trump does for women's rights. Or in more explicit terms, zero. The system treats humans as disposable entities, and cogs in the system to generate more profits then "replace" them when they cannot produce as much value as they previously did - and this holds true in both mainstream markets as well as the black market or other similar underground markets. It couldn't care less about each individual persons needs, and talents only in sofar as they can produce enough value worth expropriating.

This "capitalist" system is clouding your perspective.

LOL, quite the opposite. This certainly applies to yourself rather than me. As stated before, I see this system for what it actually is. I have no illusions about my social existence and what determines it. You see what you want to see. That is why Marxist perspectives and understandings of capitalism are superior to bourgeois ones - the former understands and observes capitalisms workings as they actually are, the latter observes it based on how they think it is, or should be. My understanding is from a materialist perspective, yours is entirely abstract and idealist.