When is a red line more of a grey area?

[kandrathe]

A very objectivist observation regarding self-interest as a motivation for all behaviors. Including what Shoju commented on propagating our genetic materials through protecting offspring, and our tribe. Our tribe helps us to survive, and so we commit to our tribes survival to the point of being willing to sacrifice ourselves to ensure the survival of our tribe, and therefore our offspring. This is the fundamental "reaction" in reactionary, which is instinctual and necessarily is devoid of extensive intellectual brooding in a dark smoky German bar.

It is not a huge intellectual leap to proclaim that each of us brings our genetic (nature) and learned (nurtured) societal baggage to the table when we go.

“Since mankind's dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away. We've seen where their way leads, through camps and wars, towards the slaughterhouse.”
― Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

The next obvious predominant human trait is laziness. Although each of us would condemn ourselves for our inactivity, each of us are probably quite productive. I'm not sure if we are productive collectively, but we all probably do enough to justify our survival within the "tribe". However, we tend (en masse) to try to do the least amount necessary, which is actually a rational position. We could do more, but we don't because we conserve our energy for those times when we must do more. So, in reflecting on what Alan Moore wrote (above), in political terms we tend to either lead, follow, get out of the way.

The resistance is a clash of leadership, a new idea, and a new tribe in formation. It is our inaction that condemns us to the miseries we suffer when finally we can no longer ignore our sorry state, and try to resist (in order to survive or thrive). This is when we've discovered that while we've been busy heads down working on our own self interests, that others have put us into a cage. That cage can be many things, political, moral, or physical.

Mostly, we get out of the way or follow -- partaking in various societal opiates (in Marx vernacular). In his day, people by and large followed Religion, so that was one windmill towards which he tilted. In our day, our daily distractions are manifold as evidenced by the ever growing categories of social addictions. We spread our culture (more like a virus), and not shove it. We don't make them buy blue jeans, wear sexy clothing, listen to pop rock platitudes, or drink Coca-cola, but we're very interested in selling it to them. Our need to defile everything is a problem even for us, but due to where they are at culturally, it is offensive. More chickens coming home to roost domestically, as we find ourselves in a place with too many over educated workers, without enough over educated jobs to provide for the young, let alone carry the boomers. Soon, the rock will meet the hard place, economically.

Now, this has everything to do with my OP. And, thanks eppie for pointing out that from our perspective, Syria has become a battle of the worse and bad. I don't think Nasrallah (Lebanon) can for very long walk the tight rope between the Sunni and Shia in this conflict. In fact, just this week, an Al Queda backed terrorist group targetted Hezbollah in Lebanon. I feel Hezbollah is making a mistake in strongly backing Assad, but they greatly fear being cut off physically from their Iranian benefactors. The strongest rebel forces in Syria are gulf state financed Wahabi, and not aligned with Iran. The risk of backing them is in creating another Afghanistan situation where radicalized fighters turn there attention back to the west, and Syria suffers from medieval Sharia law. And, conversely, our oil friends, the gulf state radical Wahabists, don't want to become overpowered by Shia either (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon). It comes down to the tribes, and their asymmetric civil war mostly doing what they believe (however reactionary) they must to ensure their tribe survives.

Edit: One last bunch of thoughts -- the evil I feel we are complicit to is in converting the oil into wealth, then offering to convert that wealth into weapons which we know they will use to destroy each other (and maybe us). The US may be able to move its oil consumption to Canada and Mexico, but Europe, or China will pay them for it. In Syria, much like Bangladesh and the garment workers, which better fits FITS concept of worker struggle against capitalism, we act in our self interest in buying the things which we can best afford -- but somewhere, some adolescent or teen girl is working in unsafe conditions and getting paid $18 per month to get us that "good deal". When I pump my $3.75/gallon gas I don't tie it to Wahab extremism. When I partake of my favorite chocolate, or coffee, I don't think about the suffering of some of the people who are enslaved in Africa, or South America. One approach is to condemn the whole stinking system, don your black beret and Che t-shirt (made slave labor in India). Or, we can use our intellect to better inform ourselves and hold people, governments and their corporations accountable for their unethical actions, and inactions.

We might be so morose as to imagine it as a vast global pyramid of greed where everyone (in their own self interest) is clawing and climbing onto the backs of others. With us former colonialists in Europe/US lucky to be on the top being heedless of the crush at the bottom. I don't really think that is an accurate picture.

In my life journey, I once had a business partner from India (he was from Mumbai). He came to the US on a student Visa, fell in love with an American girl from Iowa and they were married. Our work together on global projects in the US, and with his connections in Mumbai were enlightening. On the one hand, he was "exploiting" his citizenship in the US (and connections in Mumbai) to gain wealth, but he also brought hundreds of other Indians to the US on H1B visas, and helped sponsor their green card process -- as well as employ and build jobs and infrastructures in Mumbai. All in all, everyone benefitted from this "Capitalism". It was an interesting phenomenon to see how the new workers coming from Mumbai would adapt to their new environment -- in many areas of their life, but namely for this discussion in the area of salary. Their pay in the US was vastly higher, as was their cost of living -- it was typical that they'd get average to slightly below average wages when they first come, but within 6 months to a year, renegotiate now knowing their true market value (how much they were needed and what others were willing to pay them). We don't need a global revolution of workers when it is the consumers who are complicit in the abuses of a few greedy overlords, whereas the vast majority of the worlds capitalist markets are more like ladders, than toppling fire traps. We might grouse about exporting jobs overseas, and NAFTA, and blah, blah, blah, but realistically it is a symptom of a natural correction in our systems where wealth is being created everywhere lifting up everyone. We could do a better job with holding people accountable (and enforcing existing laws). And, back to Alan Moore again, we could do a better job in speaking up and establishing the value of our work and time (individually, or collectively).