US ambassador killed over a film

[FireIceTalon]

I could grab a chart on poverty or violence and try to link it to atheism, but it's similarly intellectually dishonest.

The only problem with YOUR chart is that it simply shows the murders per capita, it doesn't tie it to anything else. I would say that it is a much safer bet that the nations with higher murder rates are more correlated with economic and social inequality, rather than atheism? Let's use a comparison of France and Russia as an example. Both have very highly atheist populations, yet Russia has at least 10 x as many murders per capita than France. There is also A LOT more economic and social inequality in Russia than France. The arrows point to material conditions, not atheism, as the culprit. As far as linking poverty and crime to Atheism, not sure this works in your favor either - almost all the western European nations are equally or more secular than the US, most of them have less murders per capita than the US, and most of them have less disparities in social and economic inequalities as well. I'd say that is pretty empirical evidence.

2nd, I would argue that our prosperity is partially due to our social cohesiveness (more likely due to the circumstances of Empires and exploitation), but our success is mainly due to a common morality and ethic allowing us to move beyond tribalism. Prosperity came first, which then afforded our society the means to educate the masses, and then came enlightenment and the increasingly progressive rejection of religion. It is ironic and clear to anyone who looks into the history of education, that most institutions were initially theologically driven. It isn't shocking that cradled in the bosom of prosperity, humanity would reject a philosophy contrary to the worship of Mammon.

We completely disagree on this. As I've said many times, morality is completely subjective, and it doesn't necessarily unite people - quite the opposite in fact. What may be moral to you is completely absurd to someone else, and vice versa. Personally, I think most religious moralism is garbage, because it presents a very narrow, ideological doctrine (full of many paradoxes) and it subjects all of society to that specific doctrine. Its just another way of saying people are not smart enough to have self-determination and organize society on their own, how they feel fit, which historically is not true - they most certainly are capable, and they don't need a religious (or any ideological doctrine for that matter) to do it. Religion by its very nature is anti-democratic, and as I've stated in the past, all forms of authority have the burden of proof of justifying their existence. There is no evidence for me to conclude that religious doctrine of any kind is necessary for people to live cohesively, and do so prosperously, and certainly not to create a rule-of-law system based around the corresponding moralist philosophy. If anything, religion is very destructive to that process, and the Crusades all the way to now is a pretty strong reflection of this. Your whole point tries to suggest that ideas precede and change material conditions - it is in fact the reverse. They can have effect on peoples relationship to the material conditions, but they do not change or create the material conditions themselves. They are a result of material circumstances, not a cause.

3rd, you are cherry picking your statistics. According to the most recent Pew Research Poll, roughly 5% of the US are atheist, and another 5% would be agnostic. Leaving about +85% that believing in God, or some higher power controlling the universe. Aaron Levenstein said that statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.

Appeal to nature (or authority) fallacy. Most people do it, therefore it must be right.

If we are talking about a person like Corrie Ten Boom finding the courage to oppose Nazi's, and the strength to survive a concentration camp, then I'd say the ends justify the means. I can give you studies if you'd like that show specific measurable benefits. Notre Dame - National Study of Youth and Religion.

A pro-religious source. Yea, of course they are going to say it was religion, and that it was "God's Plan" that got her released from a Nazi camp, rather than it being sheer dumb luck and error on the part of the Nazi's. Since, after all, a week after her release the rest of the girls who were imprisoned with her were murdered. This is the type of shit that distorts history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_...7s_Release