The Individual Vs. The State, An Unusual Case

[FireIceTalon]

So if I understand correctly you are comparing the killing and torturing of people with some obstinate old man who wants to bury someone where he likes?

No. I made the point that the guy wants to bury his wife, on his property, and there is no legitimate reason, given the circumstances, for the State to intervene. Lenny misconstrued what I said by saying that it would be ok for his family to throw his body parts on someone else's lawn, which is completely different from my point. I don't think having your body parts tossed on someone else's property would be acceptable in ANY society.

A society needs rules, and simply saying all rules are made to keep the common man down is a gross simplification of facts.

Not exactly. A society does need rules, but it is WHO makes those rules, and on what premise and context they are made, and the consequence those rules have on anyone in society that concern me. By their very natures, class societies have rules of law systems designed by and for the ruling class. Of course, the system has to offer SOME small amount of protection for the little guy, or at least appear to, so as to prevent revolution and keep the masses pacified. You have to understand too, the ruling class doesn't *usually* need to use direct coercive force to protect their interests: their worldview and ideologies are projected through cultural hegemony and "sold" through mass media, the education system, and political pundits that is socially engineered to be adopted by the working class as the so-called "natural order" of things, or "common sense". I can name quite a few examples that we have here in America that are designed to uphold private capital, profits and that promote AND necessitate racism, chauvinism, etc. And I can do so not only with so-called sociological theory, but actual numbers and statistics in some cases as well. Shall I?

One reason for this is that most people are stupid, and don't see the consequences of what they are doing; stopping at red lights or not speeding in your car is an example. Burying people in a cemetery is another.

Dude, this is nonsense. Your outlook on our species is not only disturbing and pessimistic, but fundamentally wrong. If our species was as stupid as you say, we would have gone the way of the dinosaurs long ago. Thankfully, history has proven that we are much more clever than that. Our traffic system, while not perfect (as accidents do happen), does work very well by and large - so that isn't the best example to try and disprove my point. "Stupid" people aren't born stupid, they are in such a condition because of a social factor, whether it is a lack of education or a poor education - often in relation to the social class they are born into or some form of social engineering. And "stupid" is a rather politically incorrect term. Are poor kids with no education or little to eat in Somalia or other 3rd world nations "stupid"?? No, they are just a product of most unfortunate circumstances that is no fault of their own, caused by Capitalism and its neo-colonial tentacles.

Torture and murder on the other hand, are torture and murder, and I think no-one would say that this man deserves the death penalty for what he did. So you can go and start talking about people's rights again, but please realize that you can't just throw everything on one pile.

My point was, you were making an appeal to authority fallacy, and not so much the relative consequences. As I see it, ALL authority has the burden of proof of being able to justify its legitimacy, and in class based societies, it rarely can.

I mean do you really honestly believe that the government of the US doesn't let this guy bury his wife where he wants because of some scheme to control the people?
If you say this about the war in Iraq, I agree with you, but in this case it just doesn't make any sense.

They are worried about the property values going down if this guy does this, because then, all the real estate agents, mortgage brokers, and the Bankers/lending institutions will see their commissions and profits drop as a result (in theory, though I doubt the burying of his wife on his property would do this anyway).....profits before humanity, as usual. In a classless society, people would collectively decide and make the rules of burying your loved ones on YOUR personal property ok or not, and if they decided it was, they would also decide under what circumstances it would be acceptable, if any. Likewise, if it is decided that doing so isn't a good idea, the decision stands. Point is, the decision, either way, would be being made for what the best interest is, based on given material circumstances and in a democratic fashion, instead of for protecting PROFITS or the expansion of private capital by a undemocratic State based on hierarchy.